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MUSIC, AMBIENCE AND SOUND ART => Other Ambient (and related) Music => Topic started by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 06, 2011, 09:21:19 PM

Title: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 06, 2011, 09:21:19 PM
This is a forum topic over at 12k......One forum member by the name of Leaf post this on 12/30/10 which I have pasted below. I feel this is well worth posting here.  It has inspire me not to give up on cd releases, which I have never intended on doing, nevertheless, with free downloads and artist cutting cd prices just to be able to share without much profit, if any..... manufacturing CDs today in our community requires a lot of passion & belief in what we do as musicians and needs a greater, more powerful sustained voice from the music lovers that listen!

ATB.....Julio


i made some adjustments as i wanted to keep my reply simple.

I see and experience the only cd market left for obscure and small labels as Limited edition cds in good packaging.

I was selling 1000 cds about 3 years back in 1.5 years.Now i am down to 300.I always sold these as limited editions and for me its the only option.

I do not like files , i like to feel , see , have art , a package and i collect cds.

So do at least 300 people worldwide and as labels phase out cds it simply means those who do them will become more rare and sort after.

There will always be a % who want cds.

I see a day when cd in collectable art packaging will be worth alot more maybe an audio cd / flac data cd / art , package .

As eno has just done.

Instead of slowly eroding your art into a cheap and worthless digital commodity return it to art , do the opposite , dont follow trends make them.

There is no future in selling cheap mp3 via itunes , or cheap music for artists.For mass produced labels maybe but as musicians we really have to consider our worth.

As an artist selling his own music on limited cd ( glass master with full art etc ) for 5 years now and with about 8 releases i can say for me its now about limiting my sales , not maximising them , about selling less , distributing less and making my art and label more collectable , making it harder to buy it and making it so each buyer is a collector and supporter of me as an artist.Sell less , charge more  , return music to a valued work of art.

I end all digital distribution ( via  a major network and on every major digital retailer ) in 2011 and you will only be able to buy my work direct from me , on my site .I also end all distribution with pile it high and sell it cheap retailers .

The future for me is selling 100 / 300 limited works of art , of music / flac and in good packaging and making it so you have no choice , you buy the work as a work of art from me direct or you go buy or download some free musical commodity.

Sorry but many are heading in the wrong direction as artists , devalueing their work , piling high , selling cheap and really being sucked into and endless spiral of worthlessness.

The future is in becoming small , self suficient , offering good creative art , nice packaging and a mixed medium of cd , flac , wav and above all cutting out pointless middle men  , deal direct as artist  / label with the music buyer who supports you as an artist.

We must return music in peoples minds as a work of art.


Selling digital files does not equate to a  living for small labels.Its a trap and the trend is killing music and the idea musicians can make a living.

Its an erosion of creative spirit in music by market forces and consumerism trends that suit mac and the rest of  ' the corporation '

Digital only sales will in the end kill music i feel as art and all we will have left is a load of watered down labels selling files for 1 cent and a few highly collectable artists labels doing to exact oppsosite .

Do the opposite form the pack i say.I invested my time in collecting all my customers contacts , selling direct.I sell more direct than via distributers and retailers  now , way more.

We have to step back now , make efficient and above all work as a painter selling his work to a buyer.

Take a pro active step , force all sales through your site , all mediums controlled by the label and artist ( if an artist run label ) Price the works at a good value and remind the buyers anc Colectors ( the key ) that theya re supporting art and artists , not itune and the rest of big business.

Educate and appeal to the listeners heart and thank them for direct support.

Its a  worthless relationship that sees a listener want to pay as little as possible for your work.They dont emjoy it so much and value it less and you ? you make no living.

Mp3 via distribution is a  trap as are cheap file sales.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 07, 2011, 02:36:06 AM
Unfortunately, I´m experiencing the same thing (and I´m sure I´m not the only one). This is something I find really annoying but that´s the way life (and market) goes.

On the other hand I firmly believe that the CD will be a valid medium for ages to come. Some twenty years ago the vinyl LP was pronounced dead, and now it´s back from the graveyard with a vengenace. An expensive collectors´-only medium but it´s still there. Same thing with CDs. What we´re going through at the moment is just a general decline fired by so many factors. Once we´re through we´ll witness CD sales picking up again, and someday or other people will be fed up with mp3 downloads, too.

I consider CD releases as part of the art of making music, and I firmly believe that people who are serious about their art will always stick to a medium which demands for some responsibility (i. e. money you have to invest which in turn makes even more diligent about your work) rather than just a throw-away commodity.

I might be wrong.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 07, 2011, 10:48:31 AM
A very interesting topic. I think everyone has some idea that the music market is eroding, but I believe many think it's a matter of "out with the old, in with the new," in which CD sales decrease, but download sales increase by a similar amount, and that's not true. The past ten-plus years have been a gradual dropping away of music sales in general. First people said, "well, it's CDR copying," then people said "it must be Napster," then "people are spending less post-911," then it was the increase in the legal mp3 market, then it was bittorrent, then the economy.

As the late Gilda Radner said, "It's always something."

The bottom line is that things are changing in a way that is uncomfortable and difficult for everyone who was at all accustomed to the old, traditional ways of the music business. By that model, recording artists made music, possibly with the help of engineers and producers, which was picked up by a record label and made into records, tapes or CDs, and mostly sold through wholesale distributors in retail record shops. There are still groups and individuals making music, but just about all other aspects of that old model have changed.

Record retail is almost completely gone. Imagine if, in the mid-nineties, someone had told you "In less than 20 years, Tower Records will be gone, Camelot Music will be gone, Sam Goody will be gone, Musicland will be gone, Virgin Megastores gone, probably 9 out of your 10 favorite local or indie record stores that exist now... all will be completely gone."  You would have thought that person was insane. Now, just about the only people selling CDs in quantity in retail stores nationwide are Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, and Best Buy... not exactly record stores.

Record distribution is likewise completely transformed, with most of the traditional players vanished. It used to be that mid-sized distributors would help small independent labels find their way into record stores. You used to be able to find CDs by labels like Hypnos and Soleilmoon and Dorobo and Multimood in Tower Records, at least. Now I would be very surprised if more than a couple of weird little independent local stores stocked CDs by labels of this kind.

Most labels that existed back then have vanished. New labels that have come up since follow a completely different model.  At first, the idea of a "download only" label seemed absurd, not a "real" label at all, just a way of playing at the record label game without really making an investment. Now, it's become viable. What's more, there are many "net labels" which deal entirely in free product, and many independent artists without means of connecting with a label simply stick their album releases up on the web for free download. The perceived value of the product offered by the more traditional record label decreases as the lower barrier to entry allows more players, many of whom offer their material free of charge.

Not only is there a lot more listening material for the music-lover to choose from, so much of it is free that a great number of people simply don't have the time or inclination to buy as much music (CD or download) as they did before. A person who used to buy 100 CDs per year might now, a decade later, actually consume MORE music than they once did... but they might only buy a dozen CDs and two dozen downloads per year, while they downloaded a number 200-300 net freebie releases during the same time. Wow, such a great abundance of new stuff to listen to.

I honestly can't blame the listener for making such choices, nor can I blame the artist who would rather reach more people for free than try to grab a couple thousand dollars a year from their work. The world is changing.

I'll say more later about what this has meant for Hypnos, and what it's likely to mean in the future. We've been slow to get fully behind the download trend, not because we don't understand it or don't think it's likely to end up being important to us in the future. We'll get there, but we've had to adjust what we do with CD releases in the mean time.

Like I said, an interesting subject.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: hdibrell on January 07, 2011, 02:06:56 PM

The bottom line is that things are changing in a way that is uncomfortable and difficult for everyone who was at all accustomed to the old, traditional ways of the music business. By that model, recording artists made music, possibly with the help of engineers and producers, which was picked up by a record label and made into records, tapes or CDs, and mostly sold through wholesale distributors in retail record shops. There are still groups and individuals making music, but just about all other aspects of that old model have changed.

Record retail is almost completely gone. Imagine if, in the mid-nineties, someone had told you "In less than 20 years, Tower Records will be gone, Camelot Music will be gone, Sam Goody will be gone, Musicland will be gone, Virgin Megastores gone, probably 9 out of your 10 favorite local or indie record stores that exist now... all will be completely gone."  You would have thought that person was insane. Now, just about the only people selling CDs in quantity in retail stores nationwide are Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, and Best Buy... not exactly record stores.

Like I said, an interesting subject.
I think this is true in many other businesses, as well. I was talking to someone recently about musical instrument stores that I used to visit in San Antonio when I was younger. They were all independent. Now it is all chains for the most part. I used to make a day out of visiting the different stores in the area. They also carried different brands. Now we have Guitar Center and Sam Ash. There are still a couple of independent guitar stores and one drum store, but that's it. If I need to buy a shirt or jeans I almost have to go to a chain store. Same with hardware stores and just about anything else I need. I still try to find independents to shop at and eat at, but it is getting increasingly difficult and depressing.  :(   I should note that online there are plenty of independents around for most items, but that is just not as satisfying to me as browsing through actual storefront.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 07, 2011, 02:21:52 PM
Five or eight years ago I would have hated this guy Leaf's suggestion of intentionally limiting his release editions so as to create a sense of scarcity, but now I think it's reasonable. I see a lot of examples where this works, creating a collectible edition and telling people "if you're ever going to want this, you'd better buy it right away or it will be gone," and charging a higher price for a nice, special edition in unique packaging. I've seen book publishers go to extremes with this, with super-limited leather-bound slipcase editions for $200, that kind of thing.

If the number of people likely to purchase a CD edition in a small genre like ambient music is in the 200-300 range, rather than 1000-2000 as was true not too long ago, labels have three options to deal with this.

1. Just keep on pressing CDs just like before, and reconcile yourself with waiting a while to break even, and an even longer while to show a small profit (this is basically what Hypnos has done so far)

2. Give up pressing CDs and focus on downloads (possibly supplemented with CDRs)

3. Focus on serious fans and collectors and create special, limited collector's item releases

Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: jkn on January 07, 2011, 02:43:40 PM
By this point - I think everyone here knows I went with Mike's option #2 for Relaxed Machinery.  (Well, ok - I run it even weirder than that - the artists pays for their releases and keeps all the money - I'm more of an exception rather than the rule... I make money from my releases (so far I've released zero) and the compilations (which was really nice of the artists to volunteer to do)).   And I'm grateful to Hypnos for providing an avenue for rM to release cdr's.

A few too many parenthesis in that paragraph.

John
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 07, 2011, 04:54:56 PM
Anybody else getting tired of whining how the genre's dying, and nobody's buying CDs any more? I'm tired of whining. Halfway through my big, long whine-fest (which wasn't reeeeally meant to be a complaint, but more of an observation) I felt like stopping. I mean, people buy what they want to buy, and artists and labels saying "but... I liked how it was before!" doesn't really amount to much.

We just need to find a way to release music that people will want to buy, one way or another. If it's in fancy, hand-made packaging with an art-object quality, or if it's regular CDs inexpensive enough for people to buy on impulse, or if it's some permutation of downloading.

I've said it before, but Hypnos will be OK -- I worry more about the newer, less established labels, or the people who'd like to start up labels but decide not to bother. 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: 9dragons on January 07, 2011, 06:02:42 PM
It didn't seem like you were whining at all, Mike. I certainly would like to hear more of your ideas in relation to these topics.

I think I'm tending to agree with Leaf's post. But Mike also makes a great point in saying that if the music is something people truly want to buy, they will buy it, in whatever form.

It is interesting that publishing seems to be going in the same direction (though there are many dissimilarities as well). I really feel that the digital world plays a crucial role, and that the high quality packaging will become stronger to appeal to the holdouts. As someone who makes books, I don't feel threatened by mass market paperbacks going digital, in fact I think it's a good thing. It could very well end up strengthening the world of very high quality (though admittedly possibly prohibitively expensive to many consumers) book making and publishing. The same thing could happen with music. Though I do have some reservations with the cd format itself, which never quite seems to be an object built to last, and is inherently a mass produced, soulless factory object. The packaging can pick up this slack however. I've thought a great idea would be to just sell beautiful packaging in the form of booklet or poster, and just include a download code to obtain the actual music. And allow those who just want to download the music do so for a reduced price.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Altus on January 07, 2011, 07:51:03 PM
I'm in the group that believes audio CDs will be around for a very long time.
Personally, I will be very happy once the MP3 format isn't used anymore.  Bandwidth is at a point where lossless files are acceptable, and at least those who are only downloading music get a CD-quality equivalent of the recording.  If only Apple products supported FLAC.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: richardgurtler on January 08, 2011, 02:10:42 AM
As one of the Hypnos customers and big collectors I am in the 200-300 range mentioned by Mike, so I really hope the CDs will be around for ages to come even if the labels or artists can make only a smaller profit. Therefore the otions 1 and 3 are much more prefered by myself, but it's also depended on the prices with option 3. If the prices will go to some extremes, then this product might be available only to some rich collectors. Most likely in this case I will be forced to make decision what to buy and what to leave. Hopefully this won't happen and I will be able to afford this product or most of them as a serious fan and collector. Regarding the option 2, I agree with Mike/Altus, but I hope I won't be forced to deal with this option in the future. In any case, I am very thankful to Hypnos and to all other labels and artists who keep on releasing music on CD format and trying to find the best possible way in this situation. Thank you so much for all your passion and belief, and please keep on going!!!

Richard
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 08, 2011, 06:55:22 AM
Thanks for the informed posted Mike.....came across to me as upbeat and realistically positive.

The leaf post is inspiring for me and I hope others......artist & music lover!

I have great faith in the cd format and do not see its demise until something physically better comes along......itunes & mp3's are not the toll of its death bell.  I choose Option #1  

To further this discussion.......below is part of a Robert Rich interview that Mike posted a link to recently on this forum.  A great artist's perspective.


(http://synth.me/sites/default/files/robert-rich-interveiw%20(3).jpg)


Synth ME: How has the Internet impacted your work both in content and context? How are you approaching the uncharted future as an artist?

Robert: Of course, we live in a quickly changing and contradictory landscape of info-culture. I happily adapted to the Web quite early, and I have held my own domain names since 1996. It's a blessing for independent artists like me to be able to control our own image, our own distribution, and to be able to contact listeners directly. In this regard, the Internet is a tool of empowerment. I love the fact that people can share their own music with each other immediately.

On the other hand, the ease with which people can share free bootlegs has undercut not just the mainstream music business, but also the independent scene. It has rendered the music disposable in many people's minds, which can get discouraging for someone who spends a year or more on a new release. People don't realize that someone like me might only sell a thousand copies of an album, compared to tens of thousands of free copies shared. I console myself that file-sharing is a form of marketing, and that the people who get the music for free would not have purchased it anyway. The only way to survive in "free culture" is to remain enough well-liked by the listeners who follow one's artwork that they *want* to pay for music as a show of support, as a vote of confidence. Without those few supportive listeners, it would get rather discouraging.

So while independent musicians are empowered with greater visibility, and novices have a better chance of getting heard by a handful of people, we are simultaneously rendered incapable of sustaining ourselves financially through recordings. Artists have become marginalized in a propaganda battle between "free culture" proponents and their perceived nemesis the "recording industry." This means we artists have to find different ways of surviving, whether by keeping a day job, or by repurposing our art. For these reasons and others, I think music is becoming increasingly subservient to image, as more musicians rely on "work for hire" corporate jobs like sound design for film, television, computer gaming, and other multi-media outlets that remain commercially viable in this information-saturated culture.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 08, 2011, 07:09:48 AM

On the other hand, the ease with which people can share free bootlegs has undercut not just the mainstream music business, but also the independent scene. It has rendered the music disposable in many people's minds, which can get discouraging for someone who spends a year or more on a new release. People don't realize that someone like me might only sell a thousand copies of an album, compared to tens of thousands of free copies shared. [...] The only way to survive in "free culture" is to remain enough well-liked by the listeners who follow one's artwork that they *want* to pay for music as a show of support, as a vote of confidence. Without those few supportive listeners, it would get rather discouraging.


Very much spot-on observation by Robert.

What I find even more appalling in this context is those supportive listeners who, in the end, upload your stuff somewhere on the web without wasting a single thought on what detrimental effect it may have on your own work.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Dave Michuda on January 08, 2011, 08:19:29 AM
Just thought I'd re-post a comment made recently by Brian Eno that is applicable to this discussion.

"I think records were just a little bubble through time and those who made a living from them for a while were lucky. There is no reason why anyone should have made so much money from selling records except that everything was right for this period of time. I always knew it would run out sooner or later. It couldn't last, and now it's running out. I don't particularly care that it is and like the way things are going. The record age was just a blip. It was a bit like if you had a source of whale blubber in the 1840s and it could be used as fuel. Before gas came along, if you traded in whale blubber, you were the richest man on Earth. Then gas came along and you'd be stuck with your whale blubber. Sorry mate – history's moving along. Recorded music equals whale blubber. Eventually, something else will replace it."

 - Brian Eno from an interview in The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/jan/17/brian-eno-interview-paul-morley)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 08, 2011, 09:55:49 AM

On the other hand, the ease with which people can share free bootlegs has undercut not just the mainstream music business, but also the independent scene. It has rendered the music disposable in many people's minds, which can get discouraging for someone who spends a year or more on a new release. People don't realize that someone like me might only sell a thousand copies of an album, compared to tens of thousands of free copies shared. [...] The only way to survive in "free culture" is to remain enough well-liked by the listeners who follow one's artwork that they *want* to pay for music as a show of support, as a vote of confidence. Without those few supportive listeners, it would get rather discouraging.


Very much spot-on observation by Robert.

What I find even more appalling in this context is those supportive listeners who, in the end, upload your stuff somewhere on the web without wasting a single thought on what detrimental effect it may have on your own work.

Stephen


I was about to quote exactly the same section of Robert's remarks, until I saw you did already!

The key here is that if you give listeners something truly special, as Robert does, they will love it, and appreciate you for giving it to them to such a degree that many of them will want to support you. Given a chance of downloading your music for free, or purchasing it from you, many of them will prefer to guy it from you (possibly along with a t-shirt). Many will understand that by doing so, they're giving you encouragement to carry on and release more music.

It's up to us as music-makers, whether we're artists doing our own thing, or small labels working with multiple artists, to give people recordings they feel strongly enough about to break through the large amount of music readily available, often free.  If we can't do that, then we shouldn't blame net labels or the mp3 format or convenience or ipods or cheap CDRs.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 08, 2011, 10:06:56 AM
It is interesting that publishing seems to be going in the same direction (though there are many dissimilarities as well). I really feel that the digital world plays a crucial role, and that the high quality packaging will become stronger to appeal to the holdouts. As someone who makes books, I don't feel threatened by mass market paperbacks going digital, in fact I think it's a good thing. It could very well end up strengthening the world of very high quality (though admittedly possibly prohibitively expensive to many consumers) book making and publishing.



My thinking about what may need to happen with special, limited edition music releases has been very influenced by what I've seen from specialist publishers such as Centipede Press, Subterranean Press, PS Publishing, and a few others. They deal mostly in more expensive, extravagantly printed and packaged books, in very limited editions, at higher prices. The limitations are such that people who feel they may want, say, the new Caitlyn R. Kiernan or Thomas Ligotti collection want to purchase it right away and don't so much mind that it may be $60 for a single book.

Here there's also a sense that many people are buying these as speculation, not because they actually want to read the book. That part, I don't like so much. Scarcity for scarcity's sake, that's kind of manipulative and not really serving the material, if you're selling all your copies to people who are going to store them in a dark cellar like wine and try to sell them on Ebay 3 years later for $150 each.

Still, I feel there's something to be learned from what's happening in horror/weird/fantasy small presses. Some beautiful books are being made, some small presses are flourishing in a way that would not be possible with, say, trade paperback editions of 2,000 for $15 each, or whatever may have been the default small press output before.

I have a feeling I need to work on screenprinting and letterpress, and perhaps a few years down the road our CDs will be available in special, hand-made editions with artwork and so on, limited to 200 copies or something, at a premium price. It's something we'll at least experiment with, at some point. For now, the digipak thing is working OK.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 08, 2011, 10:09:40 AM
Just thought I'd re-post a comment made recently by Brian Eno that is applicable to this discussion.

"I think records were just a little bubble through time and those who made a living from them for a while were lucky. There is no reason why anyone should have made so much money from selling records except that everything was right for this period of time. I always knew it would run out sooner or later. It couldn't last, and now it's running out. I don't particularly care that it is and like the way things are going. The record age was just a blip. It was a bit like if you had a source of whale blubber in the 1840s and it could be used as fuel. Before gas came along, if you traded in whale blubber, you were the richest man on Earth. Then gas came along and you'd be stuck with your whale blubber. Sorry mate – history's moving along. Recorded music equals whale blubber. Eventually, something else will replace it."

 - Brian Eno from an interview in The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/jan/17/brian-eno-interview-paul-morley)


Those who banked their millions in the past couple of decades, as Eno did, can well afford to say "Ah well, t'was nice while it lasted, wasn't it, old chap? Shall we sally forth and hunt foxes today, or ride a carriage around the estate and then sip port wine beside the fire?"

The rest of us are trying to figure out what's next, and how to justify our own continued existence, while Eno lives off the interest income from what he made producing U2 records.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 08, 2011, 02:21:32 PM

I was about to quote exactly the same section of Robert's remarks, until I saw you did already!

The key here is that if you give listeners something truly special, as Robert does, they will love it, and appreciate you for giving it to them to such a degree that many of them will want to support you. [...] It's up to us as music-makers, whether we're artists doing our own thing, or small labels working with multiple artists, to give people recordings they feel strongly enough about to break through the large amount of music readily available, often free.  If we can't do that, then we shouldn't blame net labels or the mp3 format or convenience or ipods or cheap CDRs.

That´s very well put. A download can impossibly be something vaguely "artful" because how do you want to download the artwork that comes with the medium and makes it an entity? I for one very much appreciate the idea of selling a piece of "art" to my listeners rather than a commodity.

There´s nothing bad about being a bit more "artful" in the future, just to be different from the rest which isn´t (or doesn´t care to be).

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 09, 2011, 06:41:14 AM
I remember buying my first CD in 1983.  Since that time it's been quite a ride.

However, vinyl was an overlappping obsession until approximately 2000 when I stopped buying dance music as my dj side-career dried up.

In 2005, I lost most of my vinyl via Hurricane Katrina. 

In about 2007, I realized that I was starting to choke on the physical space requirements of CDs  (http://zzzone.net/photo/2009/music1.jpg); however, I continued to order CDs from Hypnos and many others.

At about that time I began converting my music collection to .flac files for a home music server (Logitech Squeezebox) (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems), and since then many more music stores and independent artists have been offering music in .flac or .wav.  As a result, purchasing files (and, yes, usually entire albums with included album art) allows me to skip a step to make the music available for the server and saves the space necessary for storage of the physical CD.  As I have mentioned before, redundant backups are critical.

I do like special editions, and I have plenty of them, but the reality is that on the server, I now have much easier access to all my music.  It's playing constantly when I'm home.  Whether it's a special edition or a set a files, it all sounds and looks the same on the server.  Here's my interface: server (http://zzzone.net/photo/server.jpg)

So, it's all good for me.  I even buy occasional vinyl, usually things that I treasured before the loss.

I think all the forms of musical distribution are alive: cassette (ugh), vinyl, CD, and files.  It is unavoidable that as files become more popular that other formats will take a bit of a drubbing.  As I mentioned somewhere before, there's nothing quite like reading about some good music, searching for it, finding it at an online store, purchasing it, and listening to it just a few minutes after reading about it.

Whichever format is preferred by the artist is cool.  However, personally I won't buy a cassette so that I can listen to tape hiss and watch it break someday.  As far as special editions go, I hope the artist won't make it so special and limited that when I decide I want one, there are none to be found.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 09, 2011, 08:50:14 AM
I do like special editions, and I have plenty of them, but the reality is that on the server, I now have much easier access to all my music.  It's playing constantly when I'm home.  Whether it's a special edition or a set a files, it all sounds and looks the same on the server.  Here's my interface: server (http://zzzone.net/photo/server.jpg)

I think this is the the preset future of playback.....what started the process of ripping my cd collection into itunes @44/16 was I wanted to take advantage of my mastering grade digital to analog converters and monitoring system in my studio.  Playback on my plextor external drive or computer drive is just to noisy.  I think if music @44 or 96/24 bit was made available by artist and playback of such files was only capable via computers, Im not sure if any hardware plays back at 24bit, the idea of a cd doesn't  work because it cant store a 96/24 file, well not much of what we come accustomed as the standard length of 74 mins.  Dvd could be and option.  I think it will be usb flash drives or something of the like, they are to expensive right now to make it a viable option but I think we could be really close.  With the large store capacity of some of these drives, music, artwork, photography & video
could be available.  Im not sure about downloading......I dont know enough about flac to be able to say if it could handle 96/24 or even 192/24.

I dont think receiving a flash drive in the mail equates that of receiving a beautiful packaged digipack......however what I describe above perhaps would change how I feel.

Heres a link to software that can playback 192/24 bit files  http://www.amarraaudio.com (http://www.amarraaudio.com)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 09, 2011, 09:26:12 AM
 I think if music @44 or 96/24 bit was made available by artist and playback of such files was only capable via computers, Im not sure if any hardware plays back at 24bit, the idea of a cd doesn't  work because it cant store a 96/24 file, well not much of what we come accustomed as the standard length of 74 mins.  Dvd could be and option.  I think it will be usb flash drives or something of the like, they are to expensive right now to make it a viable option but I think we could be really close.  With the large store capacity of some of these drives, music, artwork, photography & video
could be available.  Im not sure about downloading......I dont know enough about flac to be able to say if it could handle 96/24 or even 192/24.

I dont think receiving a flash drive in the mail equates that of receiving a beautiful packaged digipack......however what I describe above perhaps would change how I feel.


One of my players supports sampling rates up to 24 bit / 96 kHz, the Logitech Touch.  I don't have much music at those sample rates but HDTracks.com sells it.  And, yes, those hi-res files come as .flac.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: richardgurtler on January 09, 2011, 09:40:25 AM
Yes, I agree with Julio, it's always very exciting to receive some nicely looking (and sounding too... :)) digipak by AirMail. To me, it's a piece of art, many times featuring personalized signature of the artist, I have to feel it in my hands, open it, load it into my CD player and taking the journey. I simply need this kind of ritual. This can't be beaten by any downloads, no matter how they sound like and how nice they look on my screen. Just hitting some buttons on my keyboard or mouse to select music from thousands of titles, no, thanks, this is nothing for me. Maybe I am too old (but not that old... :)) to accept all these new technologies, but this is how I feel about the music. But of course I will always respect the choice of all those who are taking the download route.

Richard
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: petekelly on January 09, 2011, 10:36:18 AM

I find some of the original comments by 'Leaf' to be somewhat puzzling. Why
wouldn't an artist want as many people as possible to hear their work ? Do you
have to be in an exclusive 'ownership of the lovely physical object' order to have
access to the sacred sounds ?

Unusually, I find Eno's comments a bit irritating as well, it's easy to have made
your career from selling music to turn aroud and say 'it's just a blip' - well
that's easy to say in hindsight.

Mike , I hope you're not under the impression that all UK ambient types are off
fox-hunting during the day, then settling down with a copy of 'the Telegraph' in
front of the roaring fire on an evening. :)

Oh and I don't think CDs are dead, either.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 09, 2011, 11:28:05 AM
No, Pete, I don't consider Eno to be representative of other ambient artists, British or otherwise. He has more in common with Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga than with you or me. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy's work, but he's not coming from the same realm as the rest of us.

I was kidding about the fox hunting... sort of.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 09, 2011, 11:41:50 AM
Again we are talking about the difference between those of us who are able to recieve a download and feel they have something that they enjoy listening to and those of us who who prefer a physical 'object' to sit with and enjoy along with the music.

The technology has changed the world again and currently downloading music appears to be the norm, and the ease with which MP3 or music players make that possible, at whatever bit rate, is easy to understand - I keep my works in progress on such a player so I can listen any time any where. Also if I am spending any time away from home my player gives me more music than I can shake a stick at without any weight to carry around.

There is a strong, almost irresistable, pressure for things to be easy and quick, with no attachment or particular meaning so that the next product can be consumed.

Perhaps we can turn the question around - how do each of us prefer to have our music released? My preference is the CD, then CDR. I would also like to release a record - so much cover to design!!, but have neither the finances to do so nor a deck to play it on. Finally I am happy to release music on the web as download - but I will be careful as to what and when - so it would support my creativity rather than define it.....
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 09, 2011, 11:48:32 AM
PS

Another way of considering this is the level of 'upset' we feel if we have to get rid of any of our collection.

I have collected numerous downloads and have almost no feelings when I think - not listened to this, need the disc space: Gone!.

I don't like getting rid of CDs if I have to in the same way I did not like getting rid of my LPs many moons ago.

I especially hated having my pride and joy collection of special disc LPs stolen - almost irreplaceable as far as art definitely as far as memories.

I still hate even thinking about clearing out any Ltd editions CDs/CDRs - especially those done as works of art.....
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 09, 2011, 12:23:01 PM
PS

In my opinion, downloads (or rips from CDs) don't limit one's ability to experience music.

When I'm listening to the music, I can check out the CD art in full size form on my tablet in my lap.

I can also swipe my finger and get online information with all the lyrics from the currently playing song if applicable.

Since I'm uploading to last.fm, I can jump from the listing of the song or artist to more information about the artist, and even purchase more music directly from the tablet.

I can carry my tablet from room to room and listen in any room, analogous to carrying around my entire music collection with me, searching for a title, getting it out of the case and then playing it wherever I am in the house...at a quality level similar to CDs.

Since I began using the server, my number of listening hours/week has tripled or quadrupled with the increased accessibility that the server gives me.

With the plummeting cost of hard drive space, I have not had the need to delete files.  In fact, I would feel the same sense of loss if I deleted the files or tossed a CD.

After all, this is an electronic music forum for the most part, and electronics are going to evolve.  I will embrace the change as long as I can.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 09, 2011, 01:51:52 PM
PS

[...]

When I'm listening to the music, I can check out the CD art in full size form on my tablet in my lap.

I can also swipe my finger and get online information with all the lyrics from the currently playing song if applicable.


I love ambient music with vocals in it.

I guess this is a generation gap becoming very obvious... apparently you belong to the generation that enjoys reading e-books rather than real ones. I for one will never understand why on earth people would go for reading an e-book other than being hip or jumping the novelty factor.

But this is only me, of course.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 09, 2011, 02:04:17 PM
When I'm listening to the music, I can check out the CD art in full size form on my tablet in my lap.

I'm not saying the technology is neither any good - or in itself wrong, just explaining my relationship with it - I have to recognise what works for me and use it in that context.

I find I don't retain information read on screen as well as on actual paper - learnt from experience in work when I have to read,  analyse and bring together a wide range of information from various documents on computer - in the end I often have to print out the complicated ones as I just don't take it in off the screen.

So for me seeing it on screen just is not a satisfying experience....
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 09, 2011, 05:38:08 PM
Telling from my experience as a teacher all I can say is there is absolutely no learning effect involved with using a computer-based dictionary, for a start. There´s nothing to beat browsing through an old-fashioned dictionary, making one´s own mistakes (and learning from these) like there´s nothing to beat a real book, a real CD (player) on a real home stereo with great speakers etc.

Call me old-fashioned but not every technical innovation is a godsend. And as a musician I´m far from being anti-tech, it´s only that the more technology is around the more discriminating I get as to whether I really need it in a creative process or not.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 09, 2011, 05:45:15 PM
When I'm listening to the music, I can check out the CD art in full size form on my tablet in my lap.

I'm not saying the technology is neither any good - or in itself wrong, just explaining my relationship with it - I have to recognise what works for me and use it in that context.


"Replicants are like any other machine, they´re either a benefit or a hazard. If they´re a benefit it´s not my problem." (Rick Deckard / Blade Runner)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: jdh on January 09, 2011, 08:01:04 PM
My experience with collectibles is this,I have over the years brought and paid higher prices for special limited editions of say,rapoon with postcards,hand painted box or Steve roach early man slate edition or kraftwerk minimum maximum box set and after the initial cool factor,all of the artifacts sat in their boxes and I listened to the music.I am too old now to care about flipping over my gatefold dark side of the moon lp in my basement as cool as it might be.the music is what counts to me.though my music is mostly cd based,I am not attached to it and I believe the way is downloads,but until I can get lossless downloads without going through all different systems out there,zip or wav convertion to iTunes ,it will be cd mostly. From the purchases I did this year,there was no great big 16 page booklets or gold flecked cd covers,mostly bad printing on cheap cardboard or plain old plastic covers,mostly broken in the post. So from what I see,limited collectors editions mean not much to me as they will be more costly ( is that a good idea in the worst economy since the the 30s),take more time to make,post,etc...plus,really as an artist,if you make 300 copies and it does sell out,chances are you will do a reprint again sometime,like namlook did with his 500 editions and then reissues and then iTunes.you had to wait though for it.I just bought a limited 100 run print of a book as I am a fan of the subject,paid 35 pounds,the run sold out in 1 day and what do you know,within a day,another 200 went to print,and in a month,it will be an ebook.I do think book runs are different to cd or music titles though as the book is really a complete structure,from page one to the end,not something that can be split like music and the artwork.IMO anyway.plus,the cd is far from dead but is of another generation.   
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 13, 2011, 05:41:20 AM
To summarize:

Things you can do with files that you cannot do with CDs or any other medium:

1.  Play high fidelity files 96/24 or better (this morning I got Elvis Presley and Nick Drake music in this format)
2.  Play music over a home server in any room, different music in several rooms, all via a tablet remote control
3.  Queue up hundreds of your favorite songs to play all day without interruption
4.  View full-size album art, lyrics, and related information via live links from the song or the artist
5.  Purchase more music from the artist via links from the music on the tablet remote control
6.  Play your stored music via streaming on a telephone from anywhere in the world
7.  In return for uploading your play stats to last.fm, last.fm will allow you to stream your music to you anywhere you have a internet connection
8.  Use the storage space for CDs for something else.  Hundreds of thousands of hi-fi .flac files can be stored on a 2 TB external hard drive with another one used as a backup.
9.  No worries about CD deterioration or damage (make sure your files are backed-up though)
10.  Listen to the same music at the gym while exercising vigorously (CDs will skip)

Things you cannot do with music files:

1.  Hold the CD or the case in your hand and review the printed paper album notes and art
2.  Put the CD in the player with your hand
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: phobos on January 13, 2011, 05:58:16 AM
Another thing you can't do with music files is:-
   
          1)   Suspend them from the ceiling with bits of string so that when the light catches them they glisten with all the colours of the spectrum, ooh pretty

          2) juggle with them
   
          3) snap them

          4) leave them lying all over the place and not in their cases

          5) Wipe them with a cloth, usually with one thats been stuck in the back of the cupboard and is covered in crap

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: richardgurtler on January 13, 2011, 06:23:43 AM
Few more...

Things you cannot do with music files:

3, Running excited to the post office to pick up your order
4, To have personalized signature of your fave artist on the artwork
5, Smell of the brand new digipak... :) 

The new Box Set of Steve Roach (plus Brian Parnham) is a good example, I think few guys on this forum will agree with me... ;)

Richard 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 13, 2011, 06:35:20 AM

4, To have personalized signature of your fave artist on the artwork

The new Box Set of Steve Roach (plus Brian Parnham) is a good example, I think few guys on this forum will agree with me... ;)


(http://zzzone.net/files/roach.jpg)

Nobody is saying you can't do both :)

And where do you think I'm getting a lot of my files from?

:)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: richardgurtler on January 13, 2011, 07:10:37 AM
And I have also this one on the Box... ;)

(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9177/020ib.jpg)

Richard
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: richardgurtler on January 13, 2011, 07:21:17 AM
No, seriously jimzzzak, if you get your files directly from the artist, I agree with your download only choice, no problem at all. Like I already mentioned I respect the choice of all those who do it this way or download from official sites. But when it goes through unofficial sites, of course I can't agree with that. However, my preference will be always a physical CD.

Richard
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: APK on January 13, 2011, 08:59:00 AM
I think its great that we have options to suit different tastes.
It's not an either/or situation ... one good the other bad.
People buy and listen how they see fit.

I have more and more a tendency towards buying downloads
over CDs, but do still enjoy the occasional package in the mail.

Clearly, as Eno points out, the future will hold something different,
and eventually the CD will be just a point in time. There's no
stopping the march of technological 'progress' and change in
the broad music world ... for good or for ill. Those changes are
of course more driven by the big companies and what can be
sold in the big-money market of popular music.

So much is out of our hands.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 13, 2011, 11:47:01 AM
when I was looking to buy my last CD player I specifically chose to buy a single disc player because I wanted to make sure I had an involvement with the music in choosing each piece at each time - perhaps similar to the turning over of the LP - the thought of having a days worth of music on queue just does not appeal to me.....
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 13, 2011, 05:23:24 PM

[...] tablet remote control

[...] tablet remote control


Why do these words make me think of "retirement home" and "medication" every time I read them...?

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 13, 2011, 06:05:55 PM
Uh-oh...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20028334-261.html?tag=TOCmoreStories.0
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: APK on January 13, 2011, 07:15:26 PM
It has begun then.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Anodize DB on January 13, 2011, 10:03:01 PM
I don't really think it's beginning...if you read the piece thoroughly, Sony is simply relocating the CD manufacturing plant from NJ to Indiana. It doesn't indicate there's necessarily trouble brewing—only more corporate reorganization/downsizing, although it's possible that fewer manufacturing facilities will exist in the future.

I've thought long and hard about responding to this thread some time back when it first commenced, but I don't think Mike has enough room on his server for me to fully comment—and I'm just too damn tired tonight. ;) Suffice to say, CDs are it for me: have been since 1989, will continue to be in the years ahead. The format will not die; it will just become another cog in the music software machine, in small quantities pressed sure, but still persevering. And you know what? If for any reason the format does cease to exist, and someday they stop making them, I'll just sit back, relax, and enjoy my 18,000+ strong library for my remaining days.

...alright, come to think of it, maybe time to do a quick eBay search for something before it all goes 'poof' tomorrow... ;)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 13, 2011, 10:03:51 PM
To me, it's a piece of art, many times featuring personalized signature of the artist, I have to feel it in my hands, open it, load it into my CD player and taking the journey. I simply need this kind of ritual.
Richard

This is what it is all about.....the ritual.  There is simply nothing that can "touch" it.  Without going into a how de ritualized existence we tend to live, without the ritual we are somewhat robbed, or the experience is certainly lessened.

I recently made my first itunes download......Ambiant Otaku, the out of print starting prices waS $82. To rich for me and on top of It I had not really heard the music, so.....the itunes download sort of felt like downloading an app on my iphone.  To my taste it was fast food music....no disrespect to the actual music, love it, just dont like the delivery.  From an archival perspective, Im all for it, but as a first release.....no thanks, unless perhaps you pad it out with additional artwork, text, photo's etc..... otherwise its just so cold!

Perhaps with time I will catch up to evolution, or just go extinct!

Best...Julio


 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 14, 2011, 10:41:14 AM
I've thought long and hard about responding to this thread some time back when it first commenced, but I don't think Mike has enough room on his server for me to fully comment—and I'm just too damn tired tonight. ;)


Nah, let's hear it, Darren -- full length, let 'er rip!
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: jkn on January 14, 2011, 11:30:03 AM
I agree...  Mike's server is plenty big.   go for it!

Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 14, 2011, 11:31:50 AM
I agree with what others have said. I love the convenience and search-ability of a big iTunes library, but I would hate to have no actual CDs (or records) to look through. I like to buy the CD, rip it to my gigantic iTunes library, and then put the CD on the shelf.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: hdibrell on January 14, 2011, 02:08:32 PM
I'm not too worried about cd's going away, but I did hear a rumor that 45's may be on their way out!  :o  We can't allow that to happen! What will I do with all of the little spindle inserts I still have?
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: ffcal on January 14, 2011, 02:11:43 PM
Even a crummy LP pressing like Budd/Eno's The Pearl still has a place in my colection, because of Russell Mill's stunning cover artwork, possibly my favorite of his, even over his images in the More Dark Than Shark book.  A small CD booklet image, or even a high-res digitial one, is no substutute for me.  I'll take the 12"X12" LP cover, hands down.

Forrest
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 14, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
CDs in LP-sized packages would indeed be fantastic. Unfortunately it would take at least four CDs to fill a 12" sleeve with more than just, erm, air...

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Anodize DB on January 14, 2011, 04:46:13 PM
I've thought long and hard about responding to this thread some time back when it first commenced, but I don't think Mike has enough room on his server for me to fully comment—and I'm just too damn tired tonight. ;)

Nah, let's hear it, Darren -- full length, let 'er rip!


Okay, I'll consider writing a reply, but not for a few days (maybe Sunday). Too busy prepping for tomorrow's OTP show, amongst other things.

I know you'll all be waiting with bated breath... ;)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 14, 2011, 05:21:26 PM
I'm not too worried about cd's going away, but I did hear a rumor that 45's may be on their way out!  :o  We can't allow that to happen! What will I do with all of the little spindle inserts I still have?

I can´t remember having seen 7"s for at least fifteen, if not twenty years. The last 7" I recall buying new was Kraftwerk´s 1991 "Radioactivity"...

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 14, 2011, 05:23:59 PM
7" vinyl is still (again?) very popular in the indie rock community.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 15, 2011, 10:01:03 AM
I like to buy the CD, rip it to my gigantic iTunes library, and then put the CD on the shelf.

Yeah...that's my habit about 80% of the time although I rip to FLAC and not iTunes.  So I'm not so much anti-CD, just anti-CD player, although I still have several of them.

Think of the file option has just opening up new and different ways to do things with your CDs if you prefer.

So you can leaf through your CDs/LPs, thoroughly study and absorb the printed materials, and then fondle the disc as it goes into the player AND/OR you can do all the things I listed above with files taken from the discs.

It's all good...for me.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: einstein36 on January 15, 2011, 04:43:06 PM
well..this kind of goes along with CD's but they keep announcing the demise of DVD's and blu-rays(blu-rays are going to be around for a few more years anyways) and that streaming and digital downloads are the thing of the future...
uhhh..right...:(.....one, if they can make the digital downloads and streaming look as good and sound as good as Blu-ray and no.2. when the stupid ISP's are not going to throttle one for downloading such huge files, etc....
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: jdh on January 15, 2011, 08:34:35 PM
Yes, that is right mike. Joy division,who keep mining their back catalog of 2 albums and singles ( who by the way are brilliant and influenced a generation ) just put out a box set of 10 seven inch singles and sold out,i think the run was 10 000.So more a collectors thing but someone is buying it. I have all the original 7 inch singles still.
And yes,in the last year,that has been my habit as well,buying  the cd and putting into iTunes right away but still listening to the cd on my cd player as well.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Scott Raymond on January 15, 2011, 09:01:01 PM
  I've been thinking about this one for a while, and after talking it over with Darren, I've decided
to put my $.02 in. It's a bit long winded, but I'll try not to put you to sleep. Honest. We're in a
rare situation here as the people who make and sell the music interact closely with the people who
buy and enjoy the music. This way, we get to learn from each other, find out what matters to each
other. This is obviously a contentious issue and isn't going away anytime soon. It's something that
we're all passionate about, from those who don't want CD's to go away, to those who see downloads as
the future. Think back to where we were 5 years ago. This wouldn't be as serious a discussion then.
10 years ago, downloads were in their infancy. 15 years ago, I was writing a monthly column for a
trade magazine called New Age Voice about the Internet. Back then, it was big news if an artist or
label even had a website. Where will we be in 5 years? 10? 15? There's definitely an evolution going
on here. I'm not sure where it's headed, but there's still tons of great music being made, and
that's what really matters.

  As a DJ at an independent radio station, I see a lot of this firsthand. We're in the midst of a
years-long project to archive all our CD's onto hard drives. We're not getting rid of CD's, just
backing them up and making it easier for those DJ"s that are all digital (yes, there are some). But
at the same time, there's still physical media. I see new cassettes from indie bands in our
playlist. As Mike pointed out, indie bands are still making 7" singles. And we still get a few vinyl
records from time to time. I don't think any of those are making a comeback. I think they're just
filling niches. I think physical media will be with us for a while. Collectors like having a
physical product to hold. And performing artists need something to sell at concerts. But I think
that more and more, physical media will be the niche, and downloads (or perhaps streaming "cloud"
music, or something else) will become the norm.

  I grew up listening to classic rock on a crappy portable radio, then my dad's 8-tracks, then LP's
on my mom's stereo. I went to NYC often on record buying trips in the mid to late 80's and came back
with bags full of vinyl that I'd listen to for weeks. I bought my first CD player in 1985. My first
CD? Eddie Jobson's Theme Of Secrets. Still one of my all time favorites. I remember the first promo
CD an independent artist ever sent to me. That was a big deal at the time. There was a time when the
only way independent musicians and labels could release music was on cassette. Now well over half of
the music I get comes from downloads, either directly from the artists/labels, or from sites like
Emusic or Bandcamp. I love having something to hold in my hands, and the recording quality matters a
lot to me. But if the music's good, then the method of delivery isn't as important to me. I listened
to my dad's 8-tracks over and over again. As horrible as the sound quality was, I loved the music.

  What's been missing from this thread, and most of the others like it that I read, is the economics
of the situation from the musician/label point of view. What little I've read, and what people have
told me privately (which I won't repeat without permission) scares me. From the sounds of it, CD"s
simply aren't selling, unless you're a performing musician. I'd really like to hear more about this.
If not sales figures, then at least something that gives me more of an idea how things are going,
both for those that rely on CD sales and those that have moved more into downloads. There are a lot
more options for musicians/labels these days for download sales. Besides obvious outlets like Itunes
and CD Baby, there are others like Emusic and Bandcamp, which I've been using a lot lately. There
are different pricing options, even "pay what you want". I'm not addressing the netlabel/free
download part of it here, as I want to hear more about the economics. Are musicians/labels still
selling CD's? Are downloads selling? What makes more sense financially? We may get upset when a
musician or label stops selling CD"s and goes download only, but we have to remember that there's
usually an economic reason for it. The more we understand this, the better. There are
musicians/labels that have stopped releasing music or have gone on hiatus because it isn't
financially viable for them. Sad, but true.

  From the listeners point of view, we should talk more about the value of music. With so many
people illegally downloading music online, the big worry is that music will have no value. We need
to look at what we value about music, and how we can retain that value. Collectors find value in a
physical product, and don't find value in what's essentially a file on their hard drive. That's
fine, but if one of your favorite musicians releases a download only project, will you ignore it
because it has no value to you? In another forum, a band released an album of music as a free
download as a thank you for their fans. And someone was upset because they didn't offer it for sale
as a CD. To me, he's missing the point. It was a gift, and a nice one at that. I downloaded it,
loved it, and am playing it on my show. When O Yuki Conjugate released The Euphoria Of Disobedience,
their first album in something like 10 years, I wanted it. I'm a huge fan. And since I couldn't get
a promo copy, I had to choose between spending $30 for a limited edition release in special
packaging, or get it from Emusic (which cost something like $2). The economics of the situation
forced me to go with Emusic. And it still blew me away. I value my download files as much as I do my
CD"s. And though I get lots of promos, I still buy music sometimes, when I can't get an album any
other way. And lately the economics of my situation mean that if I can get a download for less, than
I will.

  The economics from the listener point of view (and I still consider myself one) is that most of us
have very limited budgets. MOre and more, we have to look for the value in any product. CD's might
not be going away, but more and more artists and labels are turning to downloads. As a listener,
will you spend your money on a CD? Or will you opt for a download? What are you willing to forgo, a
physical product, or the music itself? IN my case, I want to hear the music. If it's a CD, great. If
it's a download, that's fine too. If you opt for downloads, you have to accept that some
artists/labels prefer releasing CD's. Perhaps if enough of you speak up on the subject, they will
offer downloads *cough* Hypnos *cough*. If you want a CD, you have to accept that certain albums may
only be available as a download. Again, if enough of you speak up on the subject, perhaps they will
listen and offer a CD. And the musicians/labels out there need to decide which way to go. If it's
financially viable to keep releasing CD's, great. If it's a download release, then still make it
something people will value. Some labels may find a niche releasing download albums on CD. Others
may find that releasing CD's is simply no longer a viable option for them. It isn't easy for either
side, musician/labels or listeners. The more we understand each other, the better we'll all get
through this.

Scott Raymond
WVKR-FM
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: APK on January 15, 2011, 09:51:16 PM
Very nicely put, Scott.

And good to see a stress on the financial side of this discussion. Many listeners think its merely a choice for artists and labels to release download only, when in fact it is very often forced on them. They do not have the finances to pay for pressed releases, and often don't have the time to deal with putting together that product and later shipping the physical orders ... which is a very time consuming pastime. If there were lots of labels willing to pay for pressings and deal with shipping there would no doubt be many more physical releases, but there simply are not. And in the end I think its making the music available that really counts.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: jdh on January 15, 2011, 10:50:08 PM
Well said Scott .
This original thread was about limited edition runs at a higher cost,to make it more collectable.seems the entire industry is going the other way but there is a place for both.
Also what has not been mentioned is the age of all these posters,the newer ones.someone who is 20 or 25 will have a different attitude than someone who is 45 or 50, the next generation as it where.
I can strongly recommend a book about the economics of the record industry that goes a long way in explaining why we are where we are.
Appetite for self destruction by Steve knopper,read it several months ago,learned many new things about the cost of CDs and downloads.you can find it most places. 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Wanterkeelt on January 16, 2011, 02:46:28 AM
Well for me the CD isn't dead, I guess it will survive another 20-30 years at least. It may be dead in the mainstream "music" market, where the music often isn't even worth the few cent of the polycarbonate... But the music enthusiasts, like myself, the collectors (just as for vinyl) will always be willing to pay for a physical media, so in my opinion there will always be enough demand to release CDs, even if limited to 1000 copies or whatever. So even if the Cd might become a "niche" market, it will survive, and that's all that matters to me.

Personally I've been collecting metal, ambient and Berlin School metal CDs for about 12 years, and downloads have never been an option for me, except for free stuff like excellent netlabels like Earth Mantra etc. If I remember well so far I've bought 6 FLAC downloads from MusicZeit: albums by Redshift, Radio Massacre International and Keller&Schönwälder that are out of print. So there was no choice. Otherwise, the CD is always the medium I look for.

Each CD that arrives is converted to high quality OGG or MP3 to listen to the music on my portable Player on my running tours or during my walks with my dog. So like many of you I have that huge file library on my disc, but the physical backup is the most important.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 16, 2011, 05:46:20 AM

Also what has not been mentioned is the age of all these posters,the newer ones.someone who is 20 or 25 will have a different attitude than someone who is 45 or 50, the next generation as it where.


I may be an exception here.  I'm well over 50 years old and the biggest advocate in this thread for files.

And, thanks Mr. Raymond, for a very well-written perspective.

On a related note, I'm looking forward to the semi-annual vinyl record convention here in Austin in the spring.

http://www.austinrecords.com/
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 16, 2011, 07:33:52 AM

Honest. We're in a rare situation here as the people who make and sell the music interact closely with the people who
buy and enjoy the music. This way, we get to learn from each other, find out what matters to each
other through this.

Scott Raymond
WVKR-FM


Great opening statement to an very interesting post.

I original posted the Leaf "manifesto" here because as I ponder releasing 3 cds this year It seemed hopeless to does so in pressed format because of the current conditions.  Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....the leaf post sort of took the blinks off my eyes and
and expressed important things beyond economics which was what I was only looking at.   
 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 16, 2011, 09:28:36 AM

Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....


You have to educate your listeners. Make the CD the only option they have. A lesson I had to learn from past experience. I will make a new album only available when it has paid off. The sooner you make the download available, the less you will be selling of your CDs.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: petekelly on January 16, 2011, 10:08:58 AM

From my point of view, the experience of listening to the music is the primary thing - whether it's being played
back on a portable device listened to by someone on a train, a plane or up a mountainside. Equally if it's
being experienced at home on a good system / headphones, it's all the same to me.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 16, 2011, 10:36:57 AM

From my point of view, the experience of listening to the music is the primary thing - whether it's being played
back on a portable device listened to by someone on a train, a plane or up a mountainside. Equally if it's
being experienced at home on a good system / headphones, it's all the same to me.


That sums it up for me too.

As I said above, it's ALL good.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Scott Raymond on January 16, 2011, 11:31:15 AM
  Thanks for all the great responses, guys. It's not often that my few remaining brain cells work in unison, but when they do, watch out...

  In response to jdh's comment about the younger generation, that's a good point. I'd touched on it, but didn't go into detail. Quite a few of the college DJ's at the station (WVKR is based out of Vassar College) only know files and have laptops full of music that they play with programs like Traktor and Ableton. That's what they know. My recent ex gf who was *cough* younger was of a similar mind. She loved her father's vinyl collection, but everything else was downloads or streamed music. We have to remember this going forward that there's a whole generation who simply don't use physical media, or only in limited quantities. And yes, the younger generation does listen to ambient music. Look at what labels like Kranky and Western Vinyl are doing to give you an idea. A couple of years ago, I went to NYC to see Stars Of The Lid live. What surprised me the most were how many 20-somethings were in the audience. I felt like an old fogey.

  My main thing, and what I hope gets remembered here, is that I hope artists and fans communicate more with each other. If you want to put out a CD or do something in special packaging, but you're worried about recouping the expense, ask your audience. You might be surprised how many of them will agree to pay the extra money. Some artists in other fields are letting people "pre-order" the upcoming CD. When there's enough orders, the artist makes the CD and ships it out. That way the costs are covered. If you're a fan and want the artist to keep making CD's, or whatever, mention it to them. I made sure to mention to Robert Rich that I thought he should do a solo piano album. And I'm sure he didn't do it just for me. But I imagine enough people told him the same thing that eventually the idea stuck and he did it. And I'm glad he did.

  JDH, I'll have to look for that book you mentioned. Sounds interesting. One I read long ago that influenced me was The Long Tail, by Chris Anderson. All about the future of business and the Internet and how selling less of more can be a good thing. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Scott Raymond
WVKR-FM
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: mgriffin on January 16, 2011, 12:16:03 PM
Lots of great discussion here. Thanks for contributing, everybody.

As many people hav emphasized, including Scott in his latest message, it's important for listeners to let the artists and labels know what they want.  When possible, within the contraints of market realities and budgets, we want to provide what listeners are interested in hearing.

It's somewhat disorienting to find old truths no longer hold, that assumptions about how to present music to the audience must be rethought. Many labels have either given up, or switched to download only, but I believe there must be a model that will allow labels to continue releasing a tangible product (whether it's CD or vinyl or whatever) for those who prefer it. I love the convenience of digital files, but I'm not alone in wanting something more than that.

Those of you who still love CDs or records or both, bear in mind that the labels and the self-released artists who are still putting out materials in these formats need your support more than ever. The break-even point for releasing a CD used to be very easy to reach, with a bit of promotion and word of mouth. Now, even for a more established artists released on a well-known label, it can be difficult to sell enough CDs to justify pressing the discs in the first place.

Conversely, those of us who release music must remember the vital importance of releasing materials of high quality, with an appealing presentation. It's not enough any more to just slap something together and put it out there. We need to be more selective about what we release and put greater care into making it look, feel and sound the best it possibly can.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 16, 2011, 01:23:08 PM
Oophoi's Time Fragments release by databloem is a case in point......
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 16, 2011, 06:13:02 PM

[...]

Those of you who still love CDs or records or both, bear in mind that the labels and the self-released artists who are still putting out materials in these formats need your support more than ever. The break-even point for releasing a CD used to be very easy to reach, with a bit of promotion and word of mouth. Now, even for a more established artists released on a well-known label, it can be difficult to sell enough CDs to justify pressing the discs in the first place.

Conversely, those of us who release music must remember the vital importance of releasing materials of high quality, with an appealing presentation. It's not enough any more to just slap something together and put it out there. We need to be more selective about what we release and put greater care into making it look, feel and sound the best it possibly can.


You´re taking the words right out of my mouth. Very well-put.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 16, 2011, 11:38:06 PM

Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....


You have to educate your listeners. Make the CD the only option they have. A lesson I had to learn from past experience. I will make a new album only available when it has paid off. The sooner you make the download available, the less you will be selling of your CDs.

Stephen

Hi Stephen.....Quite so, but we must also listen to our audience

I fear that if I wait for my music to pay for itself than I will be waiting a long time before I release anything else...not questioning your business perspective, just not the model I came into this with.  I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

I dont think about how I can recoup, I think about how the music should be released and then I work on putting that together..... money, production, design, internet presence, etc....

As of now I dont see downloads as something I want to get into for a number of reasons that have been well represented here......but mostly for me its the journey, I spend too much time and joy in creating music to end up as a simple file within a folder to be downloaded. 

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: 9dragons on January 17, 2011, 01:06:43 AM
I'm enjoying this discussion and the different perspectives. I used to be completely against downloads, and the few experiences I had with them were uninspiring, and the feeling of detachment from the material made me lose interest quickly. But now, with some experience using an ipod, I am able to understand the counter point to this, and enjoy music detached from material. Though granted I do not and will not buy downloads, I am talking about burning cds into itunes (am listening to Robert Inglis' reading of Lord of the Rings right now).

But am I the only one who thinks itunes is a piece of crap? There are various reasons, but in general it just feels irritating and uncooperative to use. This further deters me from wanting to get downloads.

I've been listening to Roach's 4cd set Mystic Chords this evening, and the enjoyment of the digipaks and fine cover art adds to my experience of the music. I think for packaging these days we have to be very discerning and make something of quality, both graphically and in a tactile/material sense. It's not enough to throw a crappily designed and printed 4 panel piece of paper in a jewel case and call that packaging. I'd really rather see a download only release than that kind of thing. I like how labels like 12k and hypnos have simple and elegant packaging, with design consistency, that project elegance and commitment.

But what about designers and musicians teaming up to produce music accompanied by posters, books, or other specialty items? And then perhaps a download code could be included with the special materials, and those would be limited, and somewhat pricey due to the fine materials and effort put into them. But there could be a cheap option for the non collector to just purchase the download. That might work for everybody, and make the graphic design nerds happy! Curious to know what you guys think of this option...

I am planning a release with a musician that will be just a big, beautiful hand-sewn and printed book that will be built on the same theme and is inspired by the music. We are not sure whether to include a high quality (such as Taiyo Yuden) cdr and the conveyor of the musical information, or just have a special printed post card slotted into the back, that would contain the download code. When I look at the money outlay required for a run of 500 cds, it is somewhat frustrating. Another avenue to take would be for smaller companies to do very low run yet high quality cd pressings, though I don't know the pressing industry, and this may not be feasible.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 17, 2011, 05:32:48 AM
Like I´ve pointed out many times, downloads are *one* alley to follow. I think they´re useful when it comes to releasing material which would otherwise not be suited for CD release due to playing time or sheer lack of commerciality.

If they become the only way to go, well... freedom of choice would be lost, wouldn´t it?

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 17, 2011, 05:36:53 AM

[...]

I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

[...]

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.


Absolutely, but unfortunately it is mistaken as such by many these days. Blame it on a lack of proper education.

1,000 copies of a 2CD set as your debut album... kudos to such a lot of bravery.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 18, 2011, 05:58:18 AM
Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 22, 2011, 04:13:40 AM
Here's the interface for Squeezebox server showing the new music folder:

http://zzzone.net/files/new-music.jpg

[It's a large graphics file that you might have to click on to enlarge and scroll left and right]

I can access this folder plus any of the other folders from any computer in the house as well as from the tablets and remote controls.

The server approach provides improved access to your files, allowing you to hear more of your music more often.  It has revolutionized my use of music.

Enjoying the music, regardless of it's format, is what music is all about in my mind.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: hhh on January 22, 2011, 01:26:20 PM
I too, am both an artist and a musician (composer, really). I just released my debut CD and had no intention to
release downloads only. As an artist, I immensely enjoyed creating the art formy debut CD, A Distant Light, and
will continue to do so with subsequent releases. I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.
While I do provide both CDs and downloads, as an artist, I feel compelled to share the tangible asset. I know
that there are people who appreciate this and even many who prefer it. Yes, it is much more expensive, but it
is, to me, totally worth it. Besides, how am I supposed to autograph an .mp3? ;)

A toast to art, music and their steadfast creators. Long live the CD!

hhh
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on January 22, 2011, 05:56:26 PM

[...]

I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

[...]

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.


Absolutely, but unfortunately it is mistaken as such by many these days. Blame it on a lack of proper education.

1,000 copies of a 2CD set as your debut album... kudos to such a lot of bravery.

Stephen

Hey Stephen,

Bravery & Stupidity can be taken as the same sometimes....... seriously though, to press 300 of a double digi would have put cost beyond sense.  a little strange that less should cost more. 
Heard this on radio this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

Seren I enjoyed reading that....I remember a time were a few friends would gather round a stereo system and  enjoy the simple but deep union.

Personally, I have always taken the good songs with the bad and generally the bad have not been so, just have not found their footing so to speak, and as such added a dynamic to the recording.

Again, not to to over stress a point....."The Ritual" Music does not have this in the same way today.

Jimzzzak...like your new Flac logo....what do you call those, anyway....... respect.

I too, am both an artist and a musician (composer, really). I just released my debut CD and had no intention to
release downloads only. As an artist, I immensely enjoyed creating the art formy debut CD, A Distant Light, and
will continue to do so with subsequent releases. I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.
While I do provide both CDs and downloads, as an artist, I feel compelled to share the tangible asset. I know
that there are people who appreciate this and even many who prefer it. Yes, it is much more expensive, but it
is, to me, totally worth it. Besides, how am I supposed to autograph an .mp3? ;)

A toast to art, music and their steadfast creators. Long live the CD!

hhh

Hi hhh,

thanks for joining in the discussion...love your imput!

I received 5 Cd's  yesterday from Infractiion........Wow, beyond the music...I felt like i was back in 12' vinyl days . Artwork, Booklets, Excellent graphic design work.  Im very impressed with the high quality of production....Thank you! 


 

 
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: abasio on January 23, 2011, 09:06:42 AM
Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

I was a little surprised reading this that it basically says that a lot of people now just listen to random tracks and not full albums anymore. It is very rare that after putting on an album that I don't listen to all of it. For some reason I thought that was what most people did  :o
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Wanterkeelt on January 23, 2011, 09:40:31 AM
Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

I was a little surprised reading this that it basically says that a lot of people now just listen to random tracks and not full albums anymore. It is very rare that after putting on an album that I don't listen to all of it. For some reason I thought that was what most people did  :o

If you listen to a CD or vinyl, then you're right. But since most hifi equipment has USB ports nowadays, you can easily put 20 albums on a stick and listen in random mode. That's what I quite often do: a nice selection of Ambient, Post-Rock, and some Luxembourgish folk, et voilà I can prepare my history lessons  ;D
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on January 23, 2011, 02:03:00 PM
I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.

All I do is search or browse.  The computer is always on and no log-in required because I am the sole user.

It's much quicker to find specific music and get it playing than to wade through my physical library to find a disc, get it out, put it in the player and then to listen.

I think a lot of the dissent I have heard is similar to the dissent I heard when I got my first CDs.  Vinyl was prevalent and folks just didn't have much experience with CDs.

Things have moved on.  There's not a lot of real difference between an optical disc, a cassette tape, a vinyl record, an SD memory card, "the cloud", or a hard disc.

I can project the album art on my HDTV.  How cool is that?

I can be in any room to access my music, not just the room where my music collection is located.

Once again, we get back to access.  Access is the key to increased listening and appreciation of music, regardless of format.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: abasio on January 24, 2011, 03:53:51 AM
If you listen to a CD or vinyl, then you're right. But since most hifi equipment has USB ports nowadays, you can easily put 20 albums on a stick and listen in random mode. That's what I quite often do: a nice selection of Ambient, Post-Rock, and some Luxembourgish folk, et voilà I can prepare my history lessons  ;D

Well, whenever I buy either a CD or vinyl I always convert it to mp3 & for when I am out and about and even then I listen to an album, I never have it on "shuffle tracks". The only time I don't listen to a full album is when I get to work before the album has finished (which is usual as it is a 50 minute journey only)
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Brian Bieniowski on January 26, 2011, 05:27:13 PM
I love CDs and LPs, but don't have much patience with tapes or CDR.  I guess downloading files is good, but unless I really liked the music (ie. Eluder free EPs, etc.) I generally either deleted the files or forgot about them.  My old G5 probably has a ton of downloads on its drive and that thing is up in the attic with a busted video card.

Mike brings up the boutique labels on a much earlier post as compared to small press SF/F publishers.  It's a cool model and I think it can lead to a lot of awesome products.  It's a double-edged sword to me, though, for the same reasons the small press publishers can be annoying.  High prices on "art editions" (the price point definitely makes a big difference to me because, at the core, I'm just interested in the music), vaporware editions that disappear instantly and are then sold on the second-hand market for big bucks, and wildly divergent philosophies when it comes to quality control on the materials used in their construction.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Seren on January 28, 2011, 10:04:43 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12308374 - death of books due to downloads.

one interesting comment "We could soon be opening an e-book and encountering not just text and pictures, he thinks, but audio and video clips, perhaps even games. You could even see films from within books. So the e-book won't be an end to literature but could instead be a route to an even richer experience".

I can see this as a possibility - but also wonder about the death of imagination if we become unable to read a book and not 'see' it in our mind's eye....if we need someone else's version to make it enjoyable - is that really 'richer'

Is this the same argument as the death of cd etc to download or a different one?
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: doombient on January 28, 2011, 05:24:43 PM
Mankind died because of ignorance.

What a loss.

Stephen
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on February 06, 2011, 02:54:48 PM
Hey.  One other thing that I just thought of...

Browsing music electronically in file format (at least on my system) is more akin to having bins of 12 inch vinyl records where you can see the entire album art and titles as you flip through the selections.

This is as opposed to a library of CDs where as you browse, all you see is the spine of the CD and, just maybe, an artist name and title of the CD.

Sometimes I remember album art better than I do names so a graphical interface is definitely preferable and lot more easy than just seeing the spine of the CD or vinyl record.

I realized this today as I was browsing through the "L" area of my music server.  I guess it's ironic to some extent that a file-based system actually utilizes the graphics of the album in a more user-friendly way than actually handling the CD or LP itself.

Have a super Sunday.
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on February 07, 2011, 06:43:26 PM
I have begun ripping my cd collection into itunes and as it grows I have to agree with Jimzzzak... for browsing ones collection its much better than looking at a cd spines in racks.

I also purchased Amarra Junior http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra (http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra) 

Im still working things out with itunes...its not perfect sonically compared to playback on a cd player, which has more to do with itunes than computer based systems and Im still at odds with having so much available at one time.

Music selection was always a more organic sort of experience.....I have not heard artist X in a while , or a sense of the music will play on ones mind and you have to go and sort of match what your feeling.  I suppose its more akin to walking through a public library, or book shop,  not sure why your there but something called you.   It requires you to reveal it. 

Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on February 23, 2011, 05:18:25 AM
The sonic advantage of some music files over CDs is finally being noticed by Apple: 24-bit sound is possible and desirable.

http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/apple-wants-24-bit-audio-for-itunes-music-downloads-20110222/
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: ffcal on February 23, 2011, 08:33:09 AM
I guess this means we should buy the new 24-bit iPod when it becomes available (not).

Forrest
Title: Re: CDs are Dead....Almost!
Post by: zzzone.net on February 23, 2011, 11:50:33 AM
I guess this means we should buy the new 24-bit iPod when it becomes available (not).


Apple must be about to make a major foray into the home music server market.  24-bit files would be worthless and counterproductive on a portable device, because of the huge file sizes.