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MUSIC, AMBIENCE AND SOUND ART => Other Ambient (and related) Music => Topic started by: drone on on November 08, 2012, 01:49:56 PM

Title: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 08, 2012, 01:49:56 PM
Just got an email about a new Ishq release.  Considering I just spent $20 on a new Ishq disc which came out last week (on his own label, Virtual), in addition to a boatload of other music, my wallet hasn't had time to recover.  This release is called "Lyght" and is a 100-copies CDR, which does not get released until 12-21-2012. 

I have two issues with this one: why only 100? you know it's gonna sell out in about 3 days...

Plus, why would I pay for something nearly 2 MONTHS in advance??

Verdict: I HATE 'em (limited edition pre-orders)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 08, 2012, 07:21:24 PM
Update:  ishq CDR now sold out (less than 8 hrs after I received the email).  DUMB.  I think labels should give buyers who want an item more than one day to make a purchase.  And you know somebody probably bought 5 copies so they can sell them on discogs for $100 plus a piece...
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: APK on November 08, 2012, 09:11:05 PM
And what's to stop a label, for example, keeping a bunch aside to sell at $100 a piece later. It is a bit odd only offering 100 knowing they will sell out.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 08, 2012, 10:48:13 PM
Yes, you're right APK.  I hope I didn't offend any artists on the forum here who release limited editions.  To clarify, I think extreme ltd editions by artists with fairly large followings is what annoys me.  Ishq is pretty big artist in electronic music.  He sells a lot of cds, relatively.  What if Steve Roach had limited Dream Circle to 100 copies?  I think some disappointed people would have been complaining.  What's weird is even releasing an ishq CDR.  He could've put this out on cd on Virtual at say 300 copies.  Would've made more sense.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: | broken harbour | on November 09, 2012, 08:47:50 AM
That's actually what I love about Steve Roach, he keeps nearly all his albums in print, so if I discover a gem by him 25 years after it's released, I'm not limited to itunes.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: richardgurtler on November 09, 2012, 09:54:37 AM
Definitely agree with all of you, guys. Ordering a CD is for me a very enjoyable process, but if some label/artist decide to release ultra limited run even if the demand is much bigger, then this process immediately becomes stressful, because you have to be "at the right place at the right time", otherwise you miss the item or you will pay later much higher price at Discogs to someone who is trying to make some money from these strange label politics. Even if you are a true fan and collector, you might miss the item and instead of you, some speculative purchaser buys the item/items. Have no idea what's behind these "strategies" of some labels/artists even if I am hardly trying to imagine being in their shoes... Of course I understand if some artful handmade edition is made, but have no excuse for ordinary packaged CDr edition of 50 or 100 copies, even if much bigger run can be easily sold. Why to make or release music, when it's limited to smaller amount of people only? Exploring new music should be relaxing and comfortable, and not stressful and upsetting, so I simply avoid dealing with these labels/artists.

Richard
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: ffcal on November 09, 2012, 10:26:08 AM
I prefer Infraction's model, where they have a regular CD release and a limited bonus CDR of additional material for the early adopters. 

Paid a bit more than I would have liked for some of Mirror's limited run CDRs on the second hand amrket, and I'm not sure it was worth it.

Forrest
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 09, 2012, 11:03:29 AM
As much as I like Infraction, they also kind of have the "you snooze you lose" thing with those "first 50 copies come with limited bonus etc.etc." because very often I missed out on those because I didn't order a release within the first 3 or 4 days (often due to not even knowing about a release). 
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: | broken harbour | on November 09, 2012, 11:31:27 AM
I think it depends on the artist, I'm lucky to sell even 100 copies of anything,  Self financing a CDR release is a not-insignificant investment on the artists part, on top of that, I've noticed that more and more people are buying downloads of my records vs the CDR version.  That's partly why I'm limiting 'The Geometry of Shadows' to 100 copies this time around.  I'll likely not repress my 1st record once that sells out too. (I've already repressed it once.)

But I admit, when Steven Wilson limits a Bass Communion release or something to less than 1000 and it sells out in less than 24 hours it does tick me off a little bit. I can see it from both the Artist and Fan points of view.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: phobos on November 09, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
When you are a small artist you have to limit your own self released items and sometimes the limit you set is way more than you are going to sell. My latest is limited to 50 copies, as the minimum amount of digipaks the company would make is 50, I know I won't sell anywhere near that amount, but I wanted the release to be issued in a digipak and that was the only way to go.
However, I do agree with the comments about the artists who have a large following limiting releases to very small numbers, it is a bit silly ::)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: ffcal on November 09, 2012, 01:03:06 PM
If I'm reading that site for the limited Ishq CDR correctly, it looks like the release will still be available in digital format.  So it punishes those of us who prefer a physical object, but at least the release will continue to be available in some form.

The consequences of overestimating demand for a physical CD can be an overstuffed closet or garage, so there's definitely a risk in pressing too many beyond the financial.

Forrest
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 09, 2012, 05:28:21 PM
Oh yeah, you'll still be able to get the music via digital download. 

You know what I'd love to see?  Somebody release a limited edition of ONE COPY, which the artist buries in the ground and no one ever hears it, and never makes it available for download or in any form.  And whoever finds it and digs it up gets to hear it!!!  ;D 8) ;D ;) ::)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: mgriffin on November 10, 2012, 12:03:43 PM
Remember the Merzbow limited edition of one CD, which came "packaged" in the CD player of a Mercedes-Benz car, which was included?
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on November 10, 2012, 05:33:19 PM
Firstly, why release on a B quality format.....I know the minimum for pressed CD's is 300.  Not disrespecting CDr's and those that release their music on them, just saying so within the context of this artist who will clearly sell more than a 100, and apparently has.

Perhaps the music is more of a side note or older forgotten material because such a small pressing could suggest the artist lack of faith in the music......have not heard it mind you. 

Or this is a limited hard copy for those interested as the main release will be digital.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: betawave31 on November 20, 2012, 04:57:57 AM
Just got an email about a new Ishq release.  Considering I just spent $20 on a new Ishq disc which came out last week (on his own label, Virtual), in addition to a boatload of other music, my wallet hasn't had time to recover.  This release is called "Lyght" and is a 100-copies CDR, which does not get released until 12-21-2012. 

I have two issues with this one: why only 100? you know it's gonna sell out in about 3 days...

Plus, why would I pay for something nearly 2 MONTHS in advance??

Verdict: I HATE 'em (limited edition pre-orders)

Sorry I know I don't post much on this forum but this argument that a label cannot press a limited edition is a lot of hot air.

Firstly the "scene" as it may is very small to say the least. There are a few who will always support you and others who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

When artists notice that their physical cd/cdr sales have plummeted in the last ten years because of a: theft thru illegal downloads or b: people just dont have the money to spend reality dictates for them(artist) to hunker down and press less product based on demand. Its that simple not rocket science.

What is wrong with a piece of music becoming a collectors item anyway? Why all the fuss?

Does it really bother you that a cd sells for $100 on Ebay because you didnt purchase it when it was released because you waited months only to find out its been sold out?

Money and sales are marginal in today's economy(that's a given) and basically it comes down to the "artist" or "label" to make the choice of limited pressings. If you know it will become a collectors piece then buy it when its released and please stop the moaning its old, tired and pointless.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: APK on November 20, 2012, 10:51:10 AM
Yep, you are right betawave, it is ultimately the label or artist's choice. For sure.

But you know, change comes about by people voicing their opinions and, if reasons
are given, it a bit harsh to say it is all "old, tired and pointless".
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 20, 2012, 11:28:05 AM
I was not going to respond to this inflammatory post ("hot air, moaning, tired pointless" etc.) but I feel I should defend my position on it.  I am not going to insult the poster as they have insulted me, so I'll just stick to the facts...

I never "argued" that "a label cannot press a limited edition."  My point was pressing extreme limited editions by popular artists where the demand will be much greater than what is actually available.  The fact is the referenced limited edition sold out in a matter of HOURS--less than a DAY.  Yes, I am a collector and I would have purchased this album, but since I was not even given one day to do so, that was a bit impossible.  I never said anything about waiting two months to buy something and then being upset because it goes for $100 on eBay.  Believe me I know all the ins and outs on this issue.  Been collecting EM for 20 years.  I buy lots of limited editions.  I support the artists big time.  I'm on their side.  But the "you snooze you lose" situation that sometimes arises, again with the extreme ltd. editions by popular artists, can be annoying and unfair for those like myself who value and support the music, especially the physical product.       
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: mgriffin on November 20, 2012, 11:42:35 AM
I have to say, Drone On's original post wasn't about all limited editions, but these editions that are so small that they're out of print on day one. I agree with him on this. If your customer base is sufficiently rabid that 100 copies sell out in a matter of hours, why not make an edition or 200 or even 300?

Also, if you're the kind of artist who can quickly sell 200-300 discs, why not do pressed CDs instead of CDRs?

Nobody is arguing that releasing shorter runs of discs is unacceptable in today's market. I think pretty much everyone reading this forum understands the economic pressures on independent artists and labels, especially in a niche genre. But as the number of people buying CDs dwindles (and that number is way down, no question about it), that doesn't mean artists & labels should go too far in the opposite direction, and shift over to a mode of creating unnecessary scarcity. If you know 200-300 (or even 500) people want your disc, pressing only 100 so they sell out in a few hours is just bizarre. At least give everyone a month or two to grab a copy!
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 25, 2012, 07:55:39 PM
P.S. Greg/Alpha Wave Movement:  I bought your Eolian Reflections ltd 50 copies disc and I have most of your catalog.   8)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Celer on November 25, 2012, 11:34:21 PM
I thought I would come back to the forum (I forgot I had an account) and respond to this thread, because it applies to me in a lot of ways too, as a customer and artist.

As a customer, I would prefer not to pre-order something. Though I realize it is unavoidable a lot of the time, because people need the money to produce it, and I do it sometimes.

However, I think pre-orders should not be done strictly because it is a limited edition. It makes it seem exclusive (which it is), typically depending on your speed to order or available money as the answer to whether you get a copy or not. If you can make it a bigger edition, you should. These days it isn't so expensive to get 300 CDs pressed.

As a artist, sometimes pre-orders are necessary, unfortunately. When publishing myself, I try to only do it when there is no other way possible, for editions that are expensive to produce that few people buy (like vinyl).

Working with labels, however, the artist usually has no say in this matter whatsoever, which is part of the problem, because when customers are upset about limited editions being quickly sold out, the quality of the packaging, or the slow production time, usually it is not the artists' fault, yet they receive some of the blame as well. As an artist you just have to do your best and hope that it comes out well.

Another thing is about the 'why release on CDRs' question. Of course none of us want to release on CDR. It is the cheapest format (even more than tape, because there's no nostalgia associated), and the quickest to die or decay. These are the only reasons I ever release on CDR:

1) If you produce a lot of music, the options, if you can't release on vinyl or CD, are to #1 release it digitally #2 release on a CDR, or #3 not release it and hope an opportunity comes up eventually. Of the 3, obviously actually having a physical edition (even though pitiful and cheap) is still (sometimes) better than just digital, and better than nothing at all. Also you have the problem with #3 that no chance of a release will ever come up, or that so much time passes that you're more interested in your current music, and just forget it altogether.

Some people may say that with that result, it is probably better to not publish it at all. That may be fine for some people, but personally I think that all music has an important time and place. It's not always going to be perfect or your best album, but it represents something special that you do believe in, so it's important even if many people think you're already doing too much. You just have to follow what you think is right.

So in all, even though CDRs are barely worth publishing, sometimes it's doing the best (as in only) thing you can do.

I always try to print the maximum number, but I have tiny editions happen all the time too. You can't win all the time.

In response to some other people:

@Julio Di Benedetto @mgriffin Also, if you're the kind of artist who can quickly sell 200-300 discs, why not do pressed CDs instead of CDRs?

If the label won't press a CD and will only do a CDR, the artist doesn't have much choice. It's the labels' decision. My way or the highway sortof approach. It's tough enough just finding labels to release something period.

@drone on You know what I'd love to see?  Somebody release a limited edition of ONE COPY

http://onement-label.com/ONE-HOME.html (http://onement-label.com/ONE-HOME.html)

@| broken harbour | That's actually what I love about Steve Roach, he keeps nearly all his albums in print

Reissuing albums is one of the most difficult things to get labels to do, maybe not for Steve Roach, but for most everybody else lower than that

Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: mgriffin on November 26, 2012, 09:08:03 AM
Nobody should blame an artist for a limited edition selling out if it was the label's decision to release a quantity too small to satisfy immediate demand.

Also, listeners/customers should realize that it's much easier for artists like Steve Roach and Robert Rich to keep everything in print, because they sell a lot more copies, thus a repressing of 500 or 1,000 CDs is much easier decision to make.

I think the best thing for the artist, the label and the customer is when editions are made available that "fit" with the artist and label's ability to sell a given quantity over a reasonable period of time. Most people understand that sometimes there isn't sufficient demand to justify a re-pressing of something that's out of print... at least not immediately.

The problem comes up when labels make the decision to press a too-small quantity in order to generate a frenzy of short-term buying, and everyone who missed out on that initial window of availability is screwed. This harms the artist too, because there are people who want to hear the music and can't, and I would argue it even harms the label itself --  because if they had planned better, they could have sold more copies and made more money. Clearly it hurts the listener, unless they're poised to buy the moment the release comes out.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 26, 2012, 09:14:27 AM
Thanks for comments Will.  I liked the "pitiful and cheap" description of CDR's!   :P
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: mgriffin on November 26, 2012, 09:18:52 AM
I agree with Will that CDRs are better than nothing. Pressed CDs are more desireable.

I don't know that I agree that a download-only release is better than a CDR release. If you buy a CDR, you can rip the disc as soon as you receive it, and even if the disc fails after 10 years, you'll still have the files. Best of both worlds, I say. How is download-only better? Maybe if it's cheaper, I guess.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: APK on November 26, 2012, 09:45:58 AM
 "pitiful and cheap"  ?????

A CDR sounds the same. Can last a similar length of time if made well using good disks. And will usually cost more per CD than a pressed CD. Usually takes more work to create. And is very useful for short runs and re-releases. They also empower the artist, rather than the pressing plant. I could go on ...

It feeds into a contemporary mythos ... like people do who say "I'll never buy downloads."
Many people are past that.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: ffcal on November 26, 2012, 10:45:35 AM
However, I think pre-orders should not be done strictly because it is a limited edition.

Hi Will.  I agree with this, too.  The only exception I could possibly see to this if the packaging is elaborate or must be made to order.  BTW,  I have one of the 50 copies of the Celer-SIeline release.  I also picked up the virtual release so that I wouldn't disturb the artwork in the package. It reminded me of Calder's mobiles.

Forrest
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: phobos on November 26, 2012, 11:34:20 AM
"pitiful and cheap"  ?????

A CDR sounds the same. Can last a similar length of time if made well using good disks. And will usually cost more per CD than a pressed CD. Usually takes more work to create. And is very useful for short runs and re-releases. They also empower the artist, rather than the pressing plant. I could go on ...

It feeds into a contemporary mythos ... like people do who say "I'll never buy downloads."
Many people are past that.
Well said Anthony 8)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 26, 2012, 04:17:48 PM
CDR's are better than nothing.  That's about the only advantage I see for the buyer/listener, though they certainly do have advantages for the person/label releasing it as previously pointed out.  There are CDR's I've bought recently that will not play at all in my portable player due to the "sticky" type labels on them; even the silk-screened type labels on Kunaki made discs don't play in my portable.  CD's don't have this problem and never will.  Not to stir up another huge discussion about CD vs. CDR (done to death on this forum), but for the consumer CD's are better, we'll leave it at that.  I have a ton of CDR's in my collection, and most of them have not caused problems.  I know a lot of great music would never have gotten released had it not been for the CDR, so I see their value (although nowadays with downloads prevalent CDR's aren't as useful or necessary to get the artist's music released).  And I still buy CDR releases because I like having the artwork and for the collector value.   
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: APK on November 26, 2012, 04:48:43 PM
Yes, as Mike also said, pressed CDs are preferred.

I think the thing with CDR releases is to have some good design and decent artwork.
Way back I used stick on labels for DataObscura. They can look good if done well on glossy stock, but there were playing issues. So I print directly on the disks.

Of course, on the graphic front, there are pretty awful pressed releases too. It may be pressed ... but that says little about the quality of the music or of the graphics.

For me, the medium is not the message, no matter how nice it is dressed up ... the music is.

Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Celer on November 26, 2012, 05:45:23 PM
@mgriffin Nobody should blame an artist for a limited edition selling out if it was the label's decision to release a quantity too small to satisfy immediate demand.

Also, listeners/customers should realize that it's much easier for artists like Steve Roach and Robert Rich to keep everything in print, because they sell a lot more copies, thus a repressing of 500 or 1,000 CDs is much easier decision to make.

I think the best thing for the artist, the label and the customer is when editions are made available that "fit" with the artist and label's ability to sell a given quantity over a reasonable period of time. Most people understand that sometimes there isn't sufficient demand to justify a re-pressing of something that's out of print... at least not immediately.

The problem comes up when labels make the decision to press a too-small quantity in order to generate a frenzy of short-term buying, and everyone who missed out on that initial window of availability is screwed. This harms the artist too, because there are people who want to hear the music and can't, and I would argue it even harms the label itself --  because if they had planned better, they could have sold more copies and made more money. Clearly it hurts the listener, unless they're poised to buy the moment the release comes out.


Agreed!

I don't know that I agree that a download-only release is better than a CDR release.

Just for me personally a CDR (sometimes) is better than a download. For me, downloads, while they good for archival and for keeping a permanent copy of something to listen to, I don't feel any attachment to it. Having some kind of physical object is almost always better.

Unfortunately though, most CDRs come in packages that are cheap too.. so I don't know if it's really better or not.

@APK A CDR sounds the same

Yes, of course. But a high-quality download sounds the same, too. I agree that it can empower artists, but only on a certain scale. For example, CDRs are great, because it allows anyone to create small editions of their music at home to share with others. It isn't possible for just anyone to press 500 or even 300 CDs, so for that is is good. What is bad is when labels or artists are purposefully cheap, when they could (or should) be pressing CDs, and instead press CDRs, with cheap packaging.

Another benefit about home-making CDRs, is that you can be creative with packaging as well. I see a lot of CDR releases that have really uncreative packaging. Maybe digipaks and jewel cases that come with regular CDs aren't always interesting (design-wise), but at least the quality of the printing is even.

@ffcal I agree with this too. Special/odd packaging and for more creative homemade designs, this is okay for CDRs. For example you mentioned my release Sieline, which would have been impossible in any other way. Firstly the actual package itself would only fit a 3" CDR, and 3" CDRs at the time were not available (to my knowledge) as silver CDs, or there would have been a quantity minimum. So for 4 of them that would be a ridiculous price.. obviously the only way for that. And the package, custom with a die-cut and painted, for me it was much more special being able to make something unique like that.

Also a good example is American Tapes. Their releases are always limited, and rather obscure, sometimes even very cheaply made, but there is character in that garage-made crusty style. It's one of the few CDR-prone labels I still buy from.

What is bad about CDRs and packaging, is when labels stamp the band name on a Verbatim CDR, use a cardboard package with no original design or unique character, and label it as an album release, selling it as the same price of a normal, factory pressed CD.

Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: petekelly on November 27, 2012, 04:01:26 AM
Not wishing to hijack this thread and considering that the CD / CD-R issue has been discussed to death here, but I feel I should comment on the following:

'CDRs are barely worth publishing' and that they are 'pitiful and cheap'

Neither statements are true in my view, The CD-Rs I've had made up aren't cheap to make at all. More to the point. APK made the valid point about the music being the message. The time spent on creating music should dwarf the time spent on releasing the music and the accompanying medium considerations.

Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on November 27, 2012, 07:23:20 AM

@Julio Di Benedetto @mgriffin Also, if you're the kind of artist who can quickly sell 200-300 discs, why not do pressed CDs instead of CDRs?

If the label won't press a CD and will only do a CDR, the artist doesn't have much choice. It's the labels' decision. My way or the highway sortof approach. It's tough enough just finding labels to release something period.


Hi Will.....I realize you are at the mercy so to speak of the label, but does there come a point where you take control yourself when the labels release standards are not what you want.  I don't intend to make this sound egotistical because label interest in an artist is a beautiful thing regardless of the end product.   The financial & PR responsibility of doing it yourself become much greater, and I can see this would be a deterrent.   Mind you I can't say how each label works regarding who pays for production cost etc......so?  A Celer release is exciting for itself not because of the label that releases it. IF you choose to release a limited edition rubber stamped Verbatim CDR, your listers will buy it because of the music not the packaging which was a point well made by APK.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 27, 2012, 08:07:02 AM
"Time spent creating the music should dwarf releasing the music and medium considerations" ??  So you're saying It's ok to release something cheap as long as the recording was labored over?  I've got stuff in my collection where the music is great but was issued on CDR with a sticky label in slim jewelcase with single sheet insert, and to be honest that lessens the impact of the release for me.  It doesn't mean I'm not still going to buy it but the medium is disappointing compared to what it could have been.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: petekelly on November 27, 2012, 08:15:44 AM
I didn't say that at all.
Most artists aren't 'cheap', they try the best they can. Saying that, there isn't an excuse for releasing something knowingly 'shoddy'.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on November 27, 2012, 04:36:36 PM
I agree, most artists aren't cheap.  But some ideas of "classy" or "quality" packaging and presentation aren't always successful.  Everyone's definition of what is good is different.  Don't take this personally.  I never fingerpointed to any one artist.  It's not a personal attack.   :)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Celer on November 27, 2012, 07:00:45 PM
Not wishing to hijack this thread and considering that the CD / CD-R issue has been discussed to death here, but I feel I should comment on the following:

'CDRs are barely worth publishing' and that they are 'pitiful and cheap'

Neither statements are true in my view, The CD-Rs I've had made up aren't cheap to make at all. More to the point.

It's purely a matter of opinion. Music is of course first and foremost the message, but as an artist, you should also care about the presentation. I don't think ALL CDRs are pitiful and cheap, but a lot of them are. It's all how they're presented. Some people put a lot of effort into it to make it unique and special, and others don't.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: Celer on November 27, 2012, 07:06:58 PM
@Julio Di Benedetto

Hi Will.....I realize you are at the mercy so to speak of the label, but does there come a point where you take control yourself when the labels release standards are not what you want.  I don't intend to make this sound egotistical because label interest in an artist is a beautiful thing regardless of the end product.   The financial & PR responsibility of doing it yourself become much greater, and I can see this would be a deterrent.   Mind you I can't say how each label works regarding who pays for production cost etc......so?  A Celer release is exciting for itself not because of the label that releases it. IF you choose to release a limited edition rubber stamped Verbatim CDR, your listers will buy it because of the music not the packaging which was a point well made by APK.

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it. It's true that a lot of people to buy things just for the music, but presentation is important to me too. A lot of labels also think that they can get a bigger name artist to release something on their label, package it poorly and cheaply, and sell it out immediately for the same price as a regular CD. This is just them profiteering off the artist and customers.

It is true that as an artist when you see things like this happening, you have to make a stand and do things yourself. I try to do that also, but I can't afford the costs of doing much more than one at a time. Unfortunately money doesn't always match output..

And working with labels, when labels approach you, it's hard to know whether they'll do what they say or not, you just have to take a chance or not. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in those situations guide them along as best as possible. Yet some still don't come through, and that's just the risk. It's just as bad for small artists as it is big artists when that happens.
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: jkn on December 09, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
Wow, I go away for awhile on the forum and a big thread like this hits.

as a listener:
--------------------------------------
CD's - used to love them
CDR's - used to love them
Downloads - my preferred listening now

Limited Editions - I thought it was cool in the 80's with my Depeche Mode limited 12" releases... but haven't really cared since unless it's a close friend releasing it.

as a label owner
--------------------------------------
CD's - totally support any artist on rM that wants to press a CD
CDR's - same as CD
Downloads - all of our releases are downloadable

Limited Editions - unless an artist has a really good idea / reason - I doubt we'll do any.  I have heard rumblings of some special packaging type releases, which of course, I support.  I do think they should still be available in a non-limited form.



Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: sraymar on December 09, 2012, 07:33:08 PM
Just got an email about a new Ishq release.  Considering I just spent $20 on a new Ishq disc which came out last week (on his own label, Virtual), in addition to a boatload of other music, my wallet hasn't had time to recover.  This release is called "Lyght" and is a 100-copies CDR, which does not get released until 12-21-2012. 

Releasing a CDR on the day the world is supposed to end seems odd to me. Maybe release it a couple days earlier so you can get to the bank!  ;D
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on December 10, 2012, 11:24:29 AM
And actually listen to it before you're vaporized during the Pole Shift.  ;D
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: SunDummy on December 10, 2012, 12:32:59 PM
Remember the Merzbow limited edition of one CD, which came "packaged" in the CD player of a Mercedes-Benz car, which was included?

Austere and I have discussed doing an ultra-limited release of zero copies.  We'd think about the music, map it all out in our heads, then never record it.  We never got around to doing it, which means, I guess, that we DID do it.  If you don't want a copy, paypal me $9.99.   ;D
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: ffcal on December 10, 2012, 01:13:42 PM
Merzbow has a 18 LP boxed set called "Merzbient" that was limited to 222 copies.  It's a pretty insane looking box that retails for around $400.  A clerk at Amoeba told me they had sold several copies.

Forrest
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on December 10, 2012, 01:30:41 PM
Is it signed and numbered (zero?) hahahaha  ;D
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: SunDummy on December 10, 2012, 01:41:17 PM
If you act quickly, you'll get number -1.

 :P
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: fugasiyokonda on December 10, 2012, 02:55:45 PM
Just got an email about a new Ishq release.  Considering I just spent $20 on a new Ishq disc which came out last week (on his own label, Virtual), in addition to a boatload of other music, my wallet hasn't had time to recover.  This release is called "Lyght" and is a 100-copies CDR, which does not get released until 12-21-2012.  I have two issues with this one: why only 100? you know it's gonna sell out in about 3 days...Plus, why would I pay for something nearly 2 MONTHS in advance??

The release in question was on Txt records , they are specifically a limited edition cdr label and yes they sell out super quick.

From speaking to matt / ishq / virtual ( as i want a copy also ! )  it seems the label txt hadnt realised how popular it would be and matt presumed they were doing 200 cdr ( as mick chillage album was 200 ) Matt also said  his own virtual releases now dont sell much more than 150  over a 2 year period and so he figured there would be plenty )

He feels it was underpressed himself now.

His view was that limited edition is fine to a point as long as it allows a window of 6 months to a year for people to buy a copy but on this occasion it went wrong .

I spoke to matt about advanced payment  / pre orders and again he said personally he doesnt agree with it but its how txt do things and again he didnt realise this was their plan and would have asked for another method had he known.

the whole limited edition thing is tricky.

Personally as a collector i love them , i missed loads that sold out but thats where discogs is fun , i found many this way but yes its also got its downsides.I like limited stuff as i collect and love rarities.Its questionable on some level but isnt life.

The subject of labels releasing limited editons , keeping back copies and then selling them is a good one.

One famous ambient label i know did this in the early days of ebay with a distributer for the label selling multiple copies of rare deleted albums at 100 or more for years until it became odvious what was going on.

Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on December 10, 2012, 04:12:47 PM
Thanks for your interesting and informative comments.  :)
Title: Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
Post by: drone on on December 10, 2012, 04:14:49 PM
PS: What was the famous ambient label you mentioned above???