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MUSIC, AMBIENCE AND SOUND ART => Other Ambient (and related) Music => Topic started by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 29, 2014, 09:17:26 PM

Title: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 29, 2014, 09:17:26 PM
I copied theses quotes to start a new thread from the Now Playing conversation about Youtube......


"Interesting to hear that youtube is used these days by lots of people primarily to browse for music."...Pete Kelly


"That only bothers me is if the music is up there without the artist's or label's consent.  It's not unusual to see entire albums up there, and I would be surprised if most of the postings had prior consent.  The default assumption these days seems to be that you must have consented to it, even if you didn't know about it or didn't see it up there when you last checked."... Forrest Fang


"Don't think audiophiles would be going to YouTube for stealing music or anything.  I see it as a good form of promotion."....drone on


"What drone on said. The top referrer to my site is YouTube, with an average bounce rate of 35%. In my case, it's an excellent form of promotion."....Altus


"Yes, but that's the individual artist or label's decision to make, not the listener's.  I'm completely OK with the occasional piece of mine appearing on a blog mix, for example.  What I'm not OK with is a person posting one of my releases in its entirety anywhere in any form without my consent or my label's. This has happened more than once and I've had to sent take down notices."....Forrest Fang


"While I agree with what Forrest says (I wouldn't be best pleased if someone uploded one of my albums without my permission), I still think it's where a lot of people are going to find new music, so I make a video (usually a montage) whenever I release something and put it up on the choob.

I can't think of better ways to get it 'out there'. soundcloud (for example) doesn't work in that way, in my experience."....Pete Kelly


"When music that is mentioned here in the "Now Playing" thread that I might be interested in I follow whatever links are offered and also head to youtube which usually has a fair share of the artists music  to help me decide in my purchase.  It is a great resource.  I agree with Forrest about artists rights yet most of the youtube post I listen to have so much admiration for the music being posted its hard to fault it. 

Really a lot of my music purchasing decisions are often based more on youtube than the artist websites because of the silly 30 second sound clip rule that many adhere.....perhaps a Youtube thread?"...Julio Di Benedetto


"Pete and Julio,

I know there can be an inherent tension between an artist or a small label's rights and a listener's desire to hear as music as he or she can for as cheap as possible, and that YouTube for some fulfills that need alone, while other use it as a basis for experimenting with purchasing new music.  Ultimately, if musicmaking can no longer pay for itself and, instead, musicians continue to lose money paying for mastering, licensing of photos and artwork, you will have fewer musicians able or willing to do this at a continued loss and I think the pool of available music will gradually become the poorer for it.  If listeners truly respect the musicians whose music they like, they should pay for it, unless the musician chooses to make it available for free.  I try to balance my pay releases with some "free" material, such as my "Seeds of Memory" EP on Thomas Park's Treetrunk netlabel, as a way of giving those unfamiliar with my work a taste of what I do.

I buy quite a bit of music, physical and virtual, so I try to put money where my mouth is, as I think it's the right thing to do."...Forrest Fang


"What you say here Forrest is becoming a disturbing reality, or perhaps is a reality.  The idea of a pool of music becoming a puddle is a sad picture.  Some might say that there is so much out there that maybe its not a terrible thing yet it would be for the wrong reason.  All suffer for sure.

I feel that artists / musicians need to step up their personal exposure via websites / Bandcamp etc....and offer music fans a decent amount of music to listen to to help the purchasing process and thus avoid the need for youtube browsing.  This is my reason for going to youtube because I often cant find the music discussed here.  30 second sound clips @ amazon, itunes & cdbay does not promoted sales in IMHO. I realize that what you say Forrest goes much deeper and  started with the Napster thing and now "Free" is the first step towards success 

This is a huge topic.....one worth chatting about for musicians and even more so music lovers."....Julio Di Benedetto


"This is an interesting topic. You guys should create a separate thread for it so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle."....Chris23
 
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: petekelly on March 30, 2014, 08:40:38 AM
Yeah, Youtube's audio quality is very poor, but I think that it shows that we live in an increasingly visually orientated culture, where people (the majority of ?) prefer to listen to music with a visual element. I went through a phase of making a considerable number ofvideos and uploading to my channel for that reason.
Personally I use it primarily to rediscover classics that I've heard throughout my musical life (just revisited 'White punks on dope' by the Tubes !)
Paypal are weasels and they take their cut from pretty much everyone, but they seem to have a monopoly of sorts. Spotify is increasing it's artist royalty payments, but they still pay very little. I wouldn't describe Bandcamp as greedy at all, they charge you nothing if you want to give your work away and I don't recall that they take 30% either.

However, the bigger point is Forrest' s point (which I've made it myself ocassion), I can see that some artists may well just call it a day when they are finding it more difficult to cover their costs and music will be the poorer for it. Releasing music isn't a 'level playing field' nowadays, just because everyone can do it.

Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Altus on March 30, 2014, 09:07:54 AM
Audio quality is far from stellar on YouTube, but for the purposes of sampling or discovering music, it's certainly good enough.

I don't agree that sites like PayPal and Bandcamp are greedy for taking a cut. They're businesses. They have overhead costs and staff that need to be paid. This money has to come from somewhere.

Regarding Bandcamp, their pricing structure is very fair. By the way, they only take 10%, which is ridiculously low.
http://bandcamp.com/pricing (http://bandcamp.com/pricing)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: petekelly on March 30, 2014, 09:56:26 AM
I stand by what I said about Paypal - they take a cut from everyone, all those ebay sales - everything. They are rolling in it.

Slightly off-topic, I used to think Youtube was just vehicle for inanity and general juvenile stuff that didn't interest me, but now I think it's a valuable resource for information and news which is out of the reach of the mainstream media. Sure, there's a pile of nonsense there, but using your judgement, you can find out about things that you wouldn't do ordinarily.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: APK on March 30, 2014, 11:34:09 AM
Isn't it the case that you can upload higher quality audio with YouTube if you want? As with their video options too. It isn't all the same low quality.

And not everyone feels the need for the very best quality audio, many are using low budget audio systems/ear buds etc. and would probably be happy to have the album for free at that quality.

I'm surprised that people don't mention the streaming on Bandcamp. If all the tracks are streaming and it is so easy to record that stream, then it is like having free albums to download. I only just discovered that on Bandcamp you have to be a Pro user and pay a monthly fee to be able to turn a track into non-streamable.

I'm on the side of an artist's personal rights. Putting up an odd sample or perhaps a track is not so bad, but putting up a whole album without permission is ignoring those rights and ownership. People should be more respectful.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on March 30, 2014, 01:43:45 PM
I rarely preview albums via YouTube unless they appear in the Discog's video pane when I'm looking something up.

Here is what I have observed regarding my own purchasing habits:

1. I'm more likely to buy something when I can first stream the entire release. Although I think it is wise for labels and artists to put previews, montages, ans samples on their websites, the simple fact of the matter is that I'm risk adverse; I am more likely to spend money on something I've heard and know I will like than something I can only preview in 30 sec clips.

There is no shortage of good music out there. I buy about 1 CD and maybe 2 digital albums a week. Why pay for something that you can't be sure about when you can buy something you know you like?

2. Bandcamp provides an incredibly convenient mechanism for pre-viewing potential purchases. Moreover, because of the social media component, a large number of my purchases are based on seeing what like-minded people are buying. One of the fun parts of Bandcamp is that it enables you to "follow" other fans and see, via a feed, what they are buying. This is a great way to learn about new music. (And it involves no active social media presence on the part of the artist or label. Bandcamp, in other words, provides free  advertising via word of mouth. Not bad for a 10% cut that also covers hosting fees.)

3. About 50% to 66% of my purchases are digital. I'm a collector at heart, so I'd always rather have physical media than digital files. But I can't afford to buy that much material and the shipping costs from overseas are killer. The implication of this I that I'm more likely to buy a digital album if it is priced well. I would probably drop 5 USD on an album that I like with no debate. But if I see a digital album for close to 10 USD when the CD is 12 USD, sometimes I end up in a state of indecision that simply leads me to buy something else entirely.


Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Altus on March 30, 2014, 02:10:09 PM
Isn't it the case that you can upload higher quality audio with YouTube if you want?
Yup. Like Immersion said, you can encode your file with uncompressed audio so it only gets compressed once instead of twice when uploading to YouTube. That's what I do.

Regarding Bandcamp, if someone is going to rip the streams (there's a very easy way to do it via Firefox), they weren't going to buy it anyway. Just another form of piracy I guess. Agreed it's a shame they don't allow you to choose which tracks you want available to stream without paying $10/month.

Immersion, that sucks about the high rates you're getting for PayPal. In Canada, the rate is 2.9% + $0.30 (i.e. $3.20 fee on a $100 sale). I guess the rate is higher in different countries? Believe me, I've heard horror stories about PayPal, but I've been using them for years to buy stuff and receive money through my site. Never had an issue.

And what are they doing with all that money? Probably rolling around in it. ::)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 04:54:57 AM
I think because Im so used to watch videos, mostly Youtube and sometimes Vimeo, of for example surfing footage or TED or gear demo's or silly / funny cat videos on my girlfriends Facebook page I don't  associate Youtube with piracy and artist rights.  It really never occurred to me.

As Ive said Youtube is a resource for me to listen to demos of music I can find fuller length examples or to discover artist music Im not familiar with which assists me in my purchasing decisions.

Have I ever used Youtube as a Video Jukebox....yes, not for ambient but more for music from my teenage years, pop and synth pop.  I'll get an Abba song stuck in my head and have to hear it  :o

As for anyone recording a youtube stream....why both ???

Personally I dont feel Youtube music videos are the same as file sharing, maybe because of the visual element where posters have gone to often great lengths to create a montage to accompany the music that they did not write but are posting.  File sharing had / has a hoarding characteristic to it....."70,000 song and counting and all free"

I suppose though infringement is infringement when you boil it down.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 01:21:07 PM
This past week, Sam at Projekt made me aware of a site that not only had links to my music that had been posted to youtube in video form, but also had stripped the music from the videos and made them available as MP3s.  The fidelity is of course not the same, but besides the rights issue, that's a problem, too, if you don't want to see your music being presented in a lo-fi fashion.


This really does illustrate  your point.....the rights issue and the lo fi aspect after all the precious time mixing and mastering.  That would make me rather  >:(
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on March 31, 2014, 01:28:18 PM
IMO the howling concerning copyright issue on Youtube is completely overrated in the discussion.

I have a Youtube account and for each new release I upload at last one music video (sometimes 2 videos). Each week I use the search on Youtube to check for possible illegal uploads. If somethings appears, I simply use the copyright complain form provided by Youtube - almost always the illegal content is deleted between 2-4 hours. So, the copyright concerns some are mentioning here seems to me like a "phantom complaining discussion" because everyone has clearly the option to control/sort out that matter by doing something actively.

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
On the upside we get to see creative videos + music from talented artists like Tomas, Pete & Anthony.  This is where Youtube really shines for me regarding music, and my second  video favorite.....anything to do with Wolves  ;D.

P.S. Any video work from you Forrest or made with your consent?
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on March 31, 2014, 04:52:37 PM
IMO the howling concerning copyright issue on Youtube is completely overrated in the discussion.

I have a Youtube account and for each new release I upload at last one music video (sometimes 2 videos). Each week I use the search on Youtube to check for possible illegal uploads. If somethings appears, I simply use the copyright complain form provided by Youtube - almost always the illegal content is deleted between 2-4 hours. So, the copyright concerns some are mentioning here seems to me like a "phantom complaining discussion" because everyone has clearly the option to control/sort out that matter by doing something actively.

Greetings,
Tomas

Yes, getting a copyrighted file off of Youtube is much more straightforward than it used to be.  But I think it points to a greater ethical issue about whether music has become devalued to the point where it viewed by many as a "free" commodity by default.  It is not simply a matter of complaining that the car is replacing the hose and buggy.  The so-called new business model leaves musicians and small labels out of the picture almost entirely, and companies like Pandora are actively seeking to cut what are already miniscule royalties any further.  This may not have any effect on people who offer their music for free, who are hobbyists or who already operate at a loss, but it certainly discourages throwing more good money after bad.

If that amounts to "howling," then I guess I am a wolf.

Forrest

For the new business model:

At the end of the day there are only 2 kind of listeners…those who can "live or feel the music" and are willing to support the artists and those who rip them off by just having "something new" in their collection. Finally, even all those rippers constantly do need new music (like a drug), but personally i don't think they will ever see and understand value in any music they can get in this way. For them itīs just a silly hobby to collect and build a library which has no meaning at all…anything they have is just replaceable and kind of "meaningless" in long terms…for me, those people arenīt be able to give value to music or art, because two weeks later they urgently need the next release (by artist x or y) which is then available…. and so on. Of course, the availability of illegal music for any artist is critical, but even so itīs also a question who "gets it" - those rippers have anything but also nothing because after some time they deeply understand inside that any of this stuff they own is just based on something like a repeating pattern "great i have it" - no matter how many music they will get by this illegal way, I strongly believe it won't make the person happy about their music collection - finally for them itīs just based on collector behaviors. So, I donīt think itīs really worth to spend any time analyzing those "listeners" who are looking for a musical quickie only :-D

Greetings ,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 05:02:22 PM
I will look for those videos Forrest...thanks

I feel the business models of the music world are long gone and maybe thats ok as they were very exclusionary.  Few had personal studios and pro studios or even semi pro were expensive and means of distribution were also very limited.

Today the opposite is true which has ultimate lead to a free music market place and one that few artist can survive on their creations. 

My personal music efforts are labors of love funded with the desire to share and Im under no delusion that the money I put into production and musical toys will be reimbursed  so to speak by music sales....it really does not change anything.  I think I can say "WE"...are driven by elements beyond finical gain.  I dont believe it is total motivating factor.  Certainly it is good to be recognized critically and also monetarily but the critical will fire up an artist and sustain him or her creativity much more than the money.....Ok I am delusional  ;)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 06:35:57 PM
At the end of the day there are only 2 kind of listeners…those who can "live or feel the music" and are willing to support the artists and those who rip them off by just having "something new" in their collection.

The only thing I might add is that some don't realize they "are ripping off" it simply normal to do so.......solutions? 
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on March 31, 2014, 06:48:12 PM
It's sort of funny in a way, the last Youtube post I made here was "Disintegrating Loops #6" in the now playing thread  without a thought to anything we are discussing....it was just there. I did not think.

Should I have?
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: petekelly on April 01, 2014, 07:02:45 AM
I'II say one thing about the choob, it's become a very good resource for tutorials for all manner of gear. I know that some people post videos that are pretty clueless, but on the whole, there's a lot of useful information there. I dare say it's the first point of call for a lot people (particularly if they aren't eager to read manuals !)

One thing I don't understand is how some (pretty hopeless) gear tutorials get so many views and comments and other really useful stuff hardly gets any ? Was there some 'buying' of views and the likes in the past ? I suppose one reason could be the usual reciprocal flattery of social media in general.

No lupine laments here !
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: jdh on April 02, 2014, 03:11:07 PM
Concerning auditioning music,I use You Tube to hear complete tracks before purchasing a FLAC version elsewhere.The audio quality as mentioned is horrible on You Tube but for a one time listen,it is fine.Bandcamp is my default site for listening first.If the music I want to hear is not there,I go to You Tube.
Similar to Chris,I will not buy anything,or nearly anything without hearing the complete track.I remember in the day going to my local record store and playing the complete LP or CD before buying.As an example,a recent artist who I greatly enjoy and have 8 titles of put up a 23 minute track for purchase.Out of those 23 minutes,20 were ambient bliss,3 were noise.I did not buy.If I had not heard that 3 minutes of noise prior on Bandcamp or You Tube,I would have purchased and it would have gone into the bin.
Sorry,a 30 second or 90 clip of a 20 minute track in 2014 does not cut it.
I have also noticed that on BC,pricing is all over the map (cannot figure out how an artist determines the price in the first place) but that yes,in some cases downloads are more expensive than the physical CD which baffles me.Plus then you have all the different currencies and exchange rates.I do think that all music is worth something.Even if an artists is offering something for free,if I enjoy it and will listen to it over and over,well worth the price of admission.After all,you can choose to buy or not,listen or not.Pay or not.

Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 02, 2014, 06:12:54 PM
It's sort of funny in a way, the last Youtube post I made here was "Disintegrating Loops #6" in the now playing thread  without a thought to anything we are discussing....it was just there. I did not think.

Should I have?

In my opinion: yes.

There are two outcomes for people who hadn't heard the album before. After listening to the samples you linked: 

(a) they decided not to buy the album
(b) they decided to buy the album.

In the first scenario, the artist neither lost nor gained anything. (And there is always a chance that the listener was intrigued enough to return to the choice in the future.)  In the second, the artist gained something. Something > nothing.

There is a chance that there was someone out there who was considering buying the album "site unseen" in 2014, but who has now realized that there is no point in doing so (thanks to your link) because they can hear it for free on YouTube. My intuition is that this probability is smaller than that associated with outcome (b).

--

I don't know the right answers when it comes to this stuff. But my intuitions align a bit with Tomas's. I suspect that people who take the liberty to enjoy the work of artists without compensating them will not suddenly start spending money on art if the free material were to disappear. The free material (samples, streams, YouTubez) is helpful to paying fans. To not make it available to prevent the non-paying fans from enjoying it does a disservice to the paying fans and, ultimately (I suspect), the artist.

Having said that, I also resonate with one of Forrest's points. Namely, sometimes I worry that the ease with which music can be distributed these days may have broader effects on the way we value art in our culture. The ease with which I can obtain good music makes my life more rewarding (as a fan), but that same convenience might lead others devalue the art or to take it for granted.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on April 03, 2014, 06:38:04 AM
It's sort of funny in a way, the last Youtube post I made here was "Disintegrating Loops #6" in the now playing thread  without a thought to anything we are discussing....it was just there. I did not think.

Should I have?

In my opinion: yes.

There are two outcomes for people who hadn't heard the album before. After listening to the samples you linked: 

(a) they decided not to buy the album
(b) they decided to buy the album.

In the first scenario, the artist neither lost nor gained anything. (And there is always a chance that the listener was intrigued enough to return to the choice in the future.)  In the second, the artist gained something. Something > nothing.

There is a chance that there was someone out there who was considering buying the album "site unseen" in 2014, but who has now realized that there is no point in doing so (thanks to your link) because they can hear it for free on YouTube. My intuition is that this probability is smaller than that associated with outcome (b).


Interesting Chris......I feel that the act of sharing should only work in one way and that is a positive one, however a very negative aspect also exists as is being discussed.  Ultimately if I want to promote the music I love and want to bring it to the attention of others I suppose I will have to live with any negative, unseen scenarios because the worst thing possible would be silence. 

The question remains.....with this free music mentality ingrained in society, what is the solution.....i dont know but so long as we keep talking about the music we love and there is exposure in all forms then it will prevail.

Good debate.  :)     
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 03, 2014, 02:49:01 PM
Quote from: ffcal

I don't think you broke the law by posting the Youtube link to that album...

Clearly not!

The video is up since 13.09.2012 (!!!) with currently +/- 47000 views

If the artist/label (in more than 6 months) hasnīt done something against this full upload, then it seems heīs/theyīre fine with it for whatever reason. The argument "he/the label may havenīt seen it yet" wonīt work at all concerning Youtube.

Greetings,
Tomas

Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 03, 2014, 04:50:16 PM

I think it is a step too far to assume that every artist must have consented to the stream if it comes via a third -party listener who posted it to Youtube.  Maybe if I were compensated for my time in tracking down the illegal posts of my albums it might be a fairer fight?  I don't have a duty to make my music available for free for an optional payment if someone chooses to post it without my consent.  In fact, such a disrespecting person really belongs in jail.  The ones especially culpable are those who post whole albums as torrents--pretty slimy people.  Of course for those consent to having their music up there, that is their choice.

These are good points, Forrest. I was largely trying to work through the economic implications of having full tracks/albums freely available vs. not. I agree with you that the decision on whether and how such promotional material should be distributed should lie with the artist/label and not with someone else. I probably didn't make that clear.

Having said that, I must admit that I find the economic side of this issue much more interesting than the ethical one. What I really wonder about is whether having free material available hurts an artist's bottom line?

I agree with you that there are some people who will choose not to buy a product because they know that they can listen to it for free. But what proportion of these people would have bought the product if that wasn't the case? And do their numbers outweigh the numbers of people who wouldn't have bought it without having the opportunity to hear it first? Or, in the case of less well known artists, do these numbers outweigh the benefits of growing your potential fan base, some portion of which will be paying customers?

These seem like important questions to answer. My intuition is that many labels/artists highlight the ethical side of the issues because they fear that YouTube, Bandcamp, piracy, etc. are a threat to the bottom line. But I don't think there are good data on that issue. And, given that there is more competition within the music world now than ever, I would be reluctant to assume that any declines in sales are necessarily due to these channels.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 03, 2014, 06:57:07 PM
Quote
It's also a bit too cynical and just flat out wrongheaded to think that an ethical issue must generally be masking an economic one. . .  I think listeners have an implicit pact with the artists they listen to not to do them harm, even if you didn't care for his or her move into rap or DIY noise.  Without that, music just becomes an impersonal commodity, like Tide or Cheer.

Why all the hate for Tide and Cheer?  ;)

I think that once artists/labels threaten to sue their fans, the "implicit pact" has already been violated. The music industry is, in fact, an industry. Perhaps you're correct that I am being too cynical, but I believe that the major labels only talk the language of ethics when it is in their (perceived) financial interests to do so.

It might be the case that youare not thinking about these issues from a financial point of view. But I'm willing to bet that just about everyone else who is concerned with file sharing, YouTube, etc. is worried that this stuff might compromise profits or, in the case of smaller labels, the economic viability of the enterprise. They are not talking about this stuff because, in their heart of hearts, they are earnestly concerned about whether an artist's integrity has been disrespected when a fan uploads a video to YouTube. Most labels do not issue "take down" notices because they are committed to defending an ethical cause; they are trying to defend their wallets.

In my view, we cannot separate the ethics from the economics. We can do so theoretically, which, imo, makes for a good discussion. But we can't do so in practice. When I wish to show my appreciation for an artist, I buy his or her music. If I'm not putting my money where my appreciation lies, then what's the point? You can't release a CD or update your studio based on my positive experiences and well wishes. When all is said in done, we are trading commodities: my money for your art. I don't think that diminishes the value of the exchange or makes it impersonal (many people have an emotional relationship with the products they buy, including their laundry detergent).
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 03, 2014, 07:08:55 PM
Quote
if you stole something from my car, but I didn't see what you took and the car still runs fine, was there no theft?

There was a theft. But maybe I stole a bomb of which you were not aware and saved your life.  ;)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Castleview on April 03, 2014, 08:53:00 PM
While I don't believe in piracy, I do often find myself listening to music on Youtube mainly out of convenience. I don't think Youtube is a huge threat. The damage was already done before Youtube came along.

I do believe that online piracy has hurt the business overall but I also feel like the music industry has completely failed to adapt. I feel a lot worse for the smaller labels like Projekt and their artists than I do for people like Don Henley and Eminem. I certainly don't feel sorry for the major record labels.

I think digital downloads need to be priced more reasonably. I think $10 is usually a bit too much for most albums. I've seen albums on Amazon MP3 and iTunes for $12 and that's just ridiculous. I could buy a used CD for much cheaper. I think the industry needs to provide value, especially in a day and age where consumers have so many options for entertainment. Why would anybody pay $18 for a CD when they can probably go to the movies or buy a video game for about the same price or less?
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 03, 2014, 09:50:55 PM
Forrest, I worry that we're speaking past one another. I don't disagree with your ethical or your legal points. Someone who uploads copyrighted content to the internet without permission, even if he or she does it with the best of intentions, is violating both implicit rules and explicit laws.

In short, I'm not attempting to justify the ethical foundations of the listener who uploads content to YouTube. We both agree that this is inappropriate.

The only point where I think we truly disagree is whether we believe the ethical issues are confounded with the economic ones. I think that the reason most artists/labels care about these matters is because they are concerned with the sustainability of their business. And, in my mind, that is a legitimate thing to worry about. And, to the extent to which it matters, it is appropriate to treat the problem as an economic one that has ethical relevance rather than an ethical one that is economics-free.

Anyhow, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on that point. I think it is fun and interesting to hear other people's perspectives regardless; I've come away from this with some new things to consider.

Speaking of which, some of Castleview's points made me wonder what your (Forrest's and other's) thoughts are on the sales of used CDs.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: ffcal

I don't think you broke the law by posting the Youtube link to that album...

Clearly not!

The video is up since 13.09.2012 (!!!) with currently +/- 47000 views

If the artist/label (in more than 6 months) hasnīt done something against this full upload, then it seems heīs/theyīre fine with it for whatever reason. The argument "he/the label may havenīt seen it yet" wonīt work at all concerning Youtube.

Greetings,
Tomas

I think you're assuming a level of diligence that many artists, their heirs or their labels may not have and may not be inclined to exercise because the financial rewards are too small.  An artist's legal rights are not based on how effective they are playing "whack-a-mole."  If I were awarded statutory damages for tracking down my and Projekt's illegal album postings, I would gladly do it full-time.

Here's a hypothetical:  let's say you owned a summer cabin in the middle of Wyoming, but only had the time to visit it once every year or so and barely had the resources to maintain it.  A group of enterprising teenagers periodically broke into the cabin and made off with some of the cabin's belongings.  If it took you a year or two discover the theft, should that affect or not whether a crime was committed?  And in the case of your Youtube example, but does it make it any less wrong that more people were doing the same thing?  (In case you're wondering, I've never been a  believer in the wisdom of mobs.)

Forrest

 :D Forrest, you sound like iīm on the other "side" protecting those uploads…LOL

Itīs clear, that it is illegal and iīm not happy about it either. BUT, you can complain as much as you want about,
 it WILL NOT change anything about it that users are uploading copyright music on Youtube now and in the future.

So currently there are only 2 options for artists/labels:

1. Doing nothing about it
2. The artist and/or label gets active (yes, that takes effort and time)

I perfectly understand that you are pissed off by this issue (so I am) but your points are going in a circle now.

Greetings,
Tomas

Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on April 04, 2014, 06:16:10 AM
This thread has certainly got me think about the many issues at work here.

I dont think there is a solution to this....there is however evolution and as such we have no choice but to evolve or.......

Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: chris23 on April 04, 2014, 09:58:51 AM
No, Forrest, we're definitely talking past one another. This is why: "What I saw was an attempt on your part to impute hypocrisy or disingenuous motivations to artists and labels with a legitimate complaint..."

I don't view financial concerns as "disingenuous motivations" and I don't consider it "hypocrisy" for a label to be concerned with the bottom line. A label that isn't concerned with its bottom line is going to have an awfully difficult time surviving in a rapidly changing marketplace.

It might be the case that you in particular are not concerned with the financial implications of piracy. As you implied, stealing--regardless of the financial implications of what was stolen--is stealing nonetheless. And I can certainly appreciate why this issue on its own would be of concern to artists and lawyers, not to mention artistic lawyers.

But I find it hard to accept your assumption that most record labels' interest in piracy has nothing to do with a concern for how piracy affects sales. I've heard several people involved in the industry explicitly state that they believe that piracy hurts sales. I don't think it is presumptuous of me to make the inferences I'm making on the basis of such claims. And, to be clear, I don't think there is anything disingenuous about a business being concerned with factors that might undermine their bottom line.

--

The reason I am pushing the economic side of this so strongly is that I have a genuine interest in supporting the labels and musicians that I admire and respect. And when I hear people involved with the labels I love say things like "We don't know if we can sustain this enterprise because of piracy" it worries me and leads me to two questions:

(a) What would it take to make the enterprise more sustainable?
(b) Is piracy really the reason why sales are down?

This latter question matters for people like me who want to see our genre not only survive, but grow. If our focus on piracy leads us to fail to consider other possible (and potentially more potent) explanations for decreases in sales, then our preoccupation with the issue might be leading us down the wrong path.

What factors, other than piracy, may help explain why sales are suffering? I'm no industry analyst, but I would venture that some of the following factors matter:

1. When people can stream music for free over Spotify and Pandora, they don't need to buy music in order to hear the music they wish to hear. This legal alternative could potentially be responsible for a large part of diminishing sales.

2. As a few people noted earlier in the thread (e.g., Castleview), the entertainment landscape has changed considerably over the past decade. Do I want to spend money on a CD? Or would I rather (a) play an MMO or Skyrim, (b) chat with friends on Facebook, (c) argue with internet trolls on Twitter, (d) read a book on my Kindle, (e) watch a movie on Netflix that I can get instantly without having to drive to the video store? These (legal) alternatives to buying music could explain diminishing sales of music.

3. Because of the Internet, the pool of music that is available to fans has grown exponentially. When I'm trying to decide how to spend my $25 this week, I'm not just choosing between Steve Roach and Robert Rich. There are 100s of artists I'd like to support and 100s of CDs I'd like to buy. Because there is more music available to consumers these days, a typical artist is likely to experience a decrease in sales regardless of the effects of piracy.

An important point here is that, independent of piracy, there are at least three good explanations for why labels might have seen a decrease in sales over the past 15 years. A label is free to invest money in issuing take downs, suing customers, and lobbying politicians for new laws. But doing so may not be in the label's best interests economically, especially when those efforts come at the expense of thinking more broadly and creatively about other factors that drive sales and the way the world is continuing to change.

Regarding point (a): What would it take to make the enterprise more sustainable?

I don't know. As Julio noted, something needs to change. I've called attention to some things that I know influence my own buying habits (e.g., being able to preview an album first, lower prices on digital releases, making the physical product special), but those strategies might not work for all consumers.

I also suspect that we need to rethink *who* the consumers are in this genre. I assume the potential market for ambient music isn't college students who like to attend dance parties. It is probably composed of people who are collectors, audiophiles, and musicians themselves. So, finding ways to get more money from Spotify, for example, might not be the right kind of strategy for increasing the financial viability of ambient labels. But exploring other options, such as bundling digital downloads (available on purchase, as with BC) with purchases of the physical product, might be one solution that both embraces new technology while appealing to the collector mentality. I also think one solution is to focus on high-quality releases. Just because you can release something doesn't mean you should. Also, simply acknowledging that there are communities out there and embracing them can help a lot. I know people here have expressed their disdain for self-promotion. I can relate to that. But simply "knowing" who someone is--even via online platforms--makes them more human. And, at least for me, that makes me want to buy their work.


Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: drone on on April 04, 2014, 10:22:16 AM
This is why I kept my one comment short and as neutral as possible.  ;)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
Chris:  "But I find it hard to accept your assumption that most record labels' interest in piracy has nothing to do with a concern for how piracy affects sales. "

I think you've ignored most what I've been trying to say.  What you said was a direct insult.  I'm done trying to explain it to you.

Forrest

Iīm really surprised about your response…i mean, Chris tried to explain what he meant and (even itīs a personal opinion) many things he said making sense for me (i.e. piracy vs sales affects). But you just jump on an "insult" you imply it was against you. Iīm not a native english speaker but from all Iīve read, i canīt see any direct insult. For me it seems you are currently quite stuck with your artist right fights but wonīt like to expand this discussion. All people responding in this thread agreed on protecting copyrights so far, but you still hang on it and constantly repeat this issue.

I have no idea why, but for me it feels more like a defense position than trying to find solution to cope with that issue, because right now I havenīt  heard ANY ideas/suggestions from you here to make things better….so far Iīve only heard moaning.

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on April 04, 2014, 01:07:05 PM
I also suspect that we need to rethink *who* the consumers are in this genre. I assume the potential market for ambient music isn't college students who like to attend dance parties. It is probably composed of people who are collectors, audiophiles, and musicians themselves. So, finding ways to get more money from Spotify, for example, might not be the right kind of strategy for increasing the financial viability of ambient labels. But exploring other options, such as bundling digital downloads (available on purchase, as with BC) with purchases of the physical product, might be one solution that both embraces new technology while appealing to the collector mentality. I also think one solution is to focus on high-quality releases. Just because you can release something doesn't mean you should. Also, simply acknowledging that there are communities out there and embracing them can help a lot. I know people here have expressed their disdain for self-promotion. I can relate to that. But simply "knowing" who someone is--even via online platforms--makes them more human. And, at least for me, that makes me want to buy their work.

This is the sort of think for the future I like to see.......because ambient must look there.

I read recently through the hyprreal ambient emails I get that some weird label is ripping sound cloud music from artist and selling "meditation" compilation downloads on iTunes.  That is blatant theft.

Forrest & Chris......you guys are put forward some powerful concepts/truths and Im not sure how, or maybe I dont understand how it got a little out of hand but perhaps we can use some more ... :), to be  make sure points are taken in the right way.  This is important what is being discussed and many will read it.

Ultimately if I want to promote the music I love and want to bring it to the attention of others I suppose I will have to live with any negative, unseen scenarios because the worst thing possible would be silence.

Wouldn't the worst thing possible would be being sued by Lars Ulrich?;)

Forrest


Forrest, from a non legal perspective James Hetfield scares me more ;D
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 04:24:06 PM
Quote from: ffcal

BTW, I think my Animism release is available for streaming from Bandcamp, but I am ambivalent about that because of potential for recording the stream.

You THINK???

You are complaining here about broken copyrights concerning yours and other music, but for a particular own release you even donīt know if it is available for stream? Thatsīs really odd IMO... What about having a clear knowledge concerning the legal availability of your music?

If you really donīt know ("i think") about that, then all the rest of what you said before makes it sounding for me like a pseudo-intellectual speech. And as I said before, so far unfortunately i havenīt heard any future based suggestions/ideas about your point concerning the "Youtube copyright issue".

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: drone on on April 04, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
You know, I really think this thread should be closed because every time I check it there are personal attacks.  Take it off forum, I say...
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 05:16:23 PM
You know, I really think this thread should be closed because every time I check it there are personal attacks.  Take it off forum, I say...

I disagree, because a discussion including different opinions makes it more alive. Please tell me at last one personal attack written here!

I do believe this forum is not a Kindergarten place, so I think members can cope with other personal opinions.

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on April 04, 2014, 05:43:04 PM
drone on, with respect, please, a great effort has been made to construct a valid discussion about the possibilities of ambient now and in future.

If people disagree and get passionate about it more the better...bring it on.  When we are done we'll all go down the pub and have a beer or two but in the interim this needs to run its course.

Mr Griffin Sir.....I sense you are ready to release your dragons of reason...sorry, 4th season of Game of Thrones airs april 6th
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 05:54:46 PM
When we are done we'll all go down the pub and have a beer or two but in the interim this needs to run its course.

Being a wine drinker only i think Mike can close the thread right now  ;D
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on April 04, 2014, 06:20:18 PM
Yes Tomas....Im am wine drinker too, but Ive been watching some All Blacks Rugby history recently and some how wine just does work in that scenario, though New Zealand makes great wine so maybe. ;D
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 04, 2014, 06:31:54 PM
Yes Tomas....Im am wine drinker too, but Ive been watching some All Blacks Rugby history recently and some how wine just does work in that scenario, though New Zealand makes great wine so maybe. ;D

LOL  ;D

Havenīt tested any from them so far…..Actually, we have to ask APK - another wine specialist! NZ wines???
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Altus on April 05, 2014, 07:19:55 AM
People talk about the film and music industry (dinosaurs) unable to adapt to the way things are now. Unfortunately, to adapt means doing things that seem wrong to us.

The old proverb "if you can't beat them, join them" works perfectly here. Your listeners love your music so much that they spend the time to build videos and share them with the world. If that isn't passion, I don't know what is. Treat it as word of mouth promotion, which IMO is the best kind.

Chris mentioned the human connection between artist and listener. I completely agree! Post something in the comments section. Make it known that you're aware what's happening. If it's not already in the info of the video, post links to purchase the music.

Yes yes, technically what they're doing is illegal, but if the big boys can't stop it, how can we expect to win?

The ultimate option is to beat them to the punch. Upload the music yourself and tag the shit out of it. Get listeners hitting your page instead of some random listener. Build a YouTube audience and show that you're not afraid to share an entire album. Be sure to remind them that if they enjoy the music, they can support you by purchasing it.

. . . I fully expect to get some negative reactions to this post. ;)
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 05, 2014, 07:42:14 AM
Quote from: Altus


The old proverb "if you can't beat them, join them" works perfectly here. Your listeners love your music so much that they spend the time to build videos and share them with the world. If that isn't passion, I don't know what is. Treat it as word of mouth promotion, which IMO is the best kind.

If they ask the artist first, then itīs not a problem at all - and asking donīt need a lot of effort. The downside is, that an artists or label may have a specific aesthetically idea about the video and its quality, because a bad video can (in some degree) ruin the music also.

Quote from: Altus

The ultimate option is to beat them to the punch. Upload the music yourself and tag the shit out of it. Get listeners hitting your page instead of some random listener. Build a YouTube audience and show that you're not afraid to share an entire album. Be sure to remind them that if they enjoy the music, they can support you by purchasing it.

Thatīs exactly the way how i do it (except offering an entire album) and it works very well because of the direct link in the description. Also i report illegal videos to put them down…and it has a nice side effect because too many videos (of the same track) minimize the chance, that potential fans visiting my channel.

Some good points youīve mentioned here Altus!

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: mgriffin on April 05, 2014, 08:21:47 AM
I've been overwhelmingly busy with "real life" for the past week-plus, and have barely peeked into the forum at all since this topic began. Although it was mostly discussing subjects (copyright, artists's right to control their own work, and sharing of music against the artist's wishes) that are often prone to flare-up, the discussion seems to have proceeded mostly in a civil direction.

I did receive complaints yesterday so I've had to pop in here and see what's up. There are many long posts and while I've gained a sense of who's arguing what, I haven't quite determined yet where any lines were crossed. I do know I feel sorry for a lapse in moderation significant enough that a respected long-time member of the forum felt insulted and angry enough to write me off-forum to complain, and say he's frustrated enough that he may not come back.

One thing I've noticed in almost every case over the years when a member has felt insulted enough to want to leave this forum, is that the person that made the comments the first member considered insulting TRULY believed their comments were harmless, and no insult was intended. I would ask everyone to bear in mind, not just on this topic or in discussion of this subject but in general, that if the person you're arguing with seems to be getting very upset and accusing you of ad hominem or personal insults, you might stop for a moment and  consider whether your rhetoric might have started shifting from the subject matter to the person.

While we (the moderators) discuss this behind the scenes, I'll ask that everyone restrain themselves in any further comments to this topic. I'm tempted to just lock it, but I believe we can all just cool down for a while.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: petekelly on April 05, 2014, 09:45:38 AM
It's getting kind of complicated and I'm not very good at reading long posts I should say, but there's still some interesting discussion going on here, in my view. Yes, some people should perhaps be a tad more circumspect regarding being overly direct - which could be interpreted as being personal. God knows there was some 'evil' stuff (personal attacks galore) going on years ago particularly regarding politics and the like, thankfully Mike (G) knocked that on the head.

Mike (Altus) has a pretty active Youtube channel so I think his points are certainly relevant as he sees a value in using Youtube as a promotional tool. I try to do so myself, as one of my motivations is that I actually like creating the video 'eye-candy', it's something I enjoy doing.

Unless I'm mistaken the Youtube tagging thing has changed, I can't see any tagging options recently (?) 
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Scott M2 on April 05, 2014, 11:02:14 AM
I've found this thread interesting and stimulating. I think discussions and arguments between worthy participents are valuable but can easily end up with feathers ruffled and some cuts suffered when people swing too hard. Hopefully retreating from a thread or the forum for a week instead of leaving altogether is a viable strategy because we value our long distance friends here. Cheers!
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: Altus on April 06, 2014, 05:24:10 AM
Unless I'm mistaken the Youtube tagging thing has changed, I can't see any tagging options recently (?)
Tags entered by the video creator are invisible to the end-user, but are used when searching and YT displaying related video suggestions.
Title: Re: What is Youtube to you?
Post by: El culto on April 22, 2014, 06:19:12 PM
I think that we now in modern time are allowed to be tremendously open minded for more variety of sound and sound awareness.

"allowed……for more variety of sound and sound awareness"  ???

Why we wasnīt allowed to be open minded before this modern time?