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MUSIC, AMBIENCE AND SOUND ART => Music Gearheads Tech Talk => Topic started by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 06, 2014, 05:26:56 PM

Title: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 06, 2014, 05:26:56 PM
I have been working with live 9 trial for close to a month off and on and the trial will end soon.....after much thought and viewing Logic X video demos I feel that there is no future for me with Logic and the way it is heading. It is worth another topic for what Apple is doing to its software so I will not go into it here, anyway my current daw is Logic Pro 9.

Much that Ive discovered using Live 9 is exciting and is a very different way of working, primarily because it seems directed towards clips and samples etc.....certainly the arrange view is similar to the more tradition daws such Logic, Pro tools & Cubase to name a few but the session view seems very stiff where clips, samples and audio need to conform its work flow which is not how I create.  I havent given session view a huge amount of time to to be able to uncover its possibilities so that stiffness my just be me.

Max for Live is amazing...Ive downloaded devices and well thats a sonic playground to jump into and get dirty.

I have been an hardware sort of fellow all my musical life, samples really never figured into my creative process other than some sample based technologies such as wavetable synthesis and the occasional rompler.

I guess my question is for those who made the transition from the tradition linear time line daw to Live....how was the journey?
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: El culto on June 06, 2014, 06:46:23 PM
Hi Julio,

first of all I do agree with you that Logic X has no future. The "1 window-view" either you like or hate…I hate it! Working with Midi is a real pain in the ass and 64 Bit plugins only (without internal bridge) is a joke. If you have Logic 8 you want miss anything.

You donīt have to use the session view at all if itīs annoying - to some degree it can be handy to make spontaneous drafts because anything you tweak will be recorded as Midi…the arrange view does work very well if you are using just the "timeline" for composing but it is limited in many other ways too (especially for recording Midi). Also the connection to external Midi Devices won't work as smooth like in Cubase. So, if you have some externall Hardware connected Live wonīt work very well.

You just have to decide if you are open to try something completely new…of course, with the arrange view Live acts like a normal daw, but with many restrictions concerning midi. If that is not a problem you may find something interesting in Live IF you are open to leave the usual workflow of other DAWīs behind.

Greetings,
Tomas 



Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 07, 2014, 03:46:19 AM
Hi Tomas.....having worked with Logic since the late 1990's when it was Emagic's Logic Platinum before Apple bought it Ive been stuck in the linear frame for a long time......and as you said if Im ready to try something completely new.  I think its time and Live seems to be the one daw system that works in a way that turns ones computer into an instrument whereas the Logic, Pro Tools & Cubase scenario is a virtual recreation of the traditional mixing console to 24 track tape machine. 

Auditioning Live 9 has opened the potential for working in a new ways.....I need to get over the "sample thing".

Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Scott M2 on June 08, 2014, 09:36:38 AM
Looks like you've already made your financial commitment to Live but I thought I'd throw in that many of my friends have moved from various DAWs to Reaper for their Audio/MIDI work.

I used to use Logic on PCs until Apple bought it and abandoned PCs. I'll probably be moving to Reaper too as Sony has stopped updating ACID (no 64bit for instance) and Vegas has become more and more inhospitable for VSTs (though there's workarounds). (I'd still continue to use Vegas for my audiovisual work as it's very strong there.)
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 08, 2014, 10:45:08 AM
Hi Scott.....no financial commitment yet, still working with the trial version so I will take a look at Reaper.  Its funny I just had an old 2006 dell laptop resurrected to become my living room music server and the computer tech put Soundforge and Acid on it.  I will have to open it up.

Thanks for your suggestion!
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: El culto on June 08, 2014, 12:06:29 PM
Another easy to use DAW worth to explore:

http://www.presonus.com/products/studio-one/ (http://www.presonus.com/products/studio-one/)

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 09, 2014, 04:28:13 PM
Installed Ableton Live 9 Suite today and have been downloading various packs.....mostly Max for live and a few experimental sample sounds

Im really impressed with how Ableton has integrated their soft synth...I thought I would just get the standard version and add Max but working with the Suite version as a trial the soft synths are an integral part of live I sensed I would regret not having them at hand.

Thanks so much for you thoughts & suggestions Tomas & Scott.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: LNerell on June 23, 2014, 05:17:57 PM
Hi Julio,

first of all I do agree with you that Logic X has no future. The "1 window-view" either you like or hate…I hate it! Working with Midi is a real pain in the ass and 64 Bit plugins only (without internal bridge) is a joke. If you have Logic 8 you want miss anything.

I don't understand the issue here, I can use two windows in Logic X:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/lnerell/photo_zps8c7f86db.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lnerell/media/photo_zps8c7f86db.jpg.html)

It works the same as Logic 9. Working with midi is easy, no big deal. Yeah I don't like the 64 bit only part, and I have yet to use the drum thingy they added. I only use X once in a while at work, my home studio is still Logic 9. 

Have fun in Ableton Live, I don't use it for anything serious but I know a lot of people who do great things with it. Having said that after playing with it a bit at work I have to say I'm not all that pleased with the quality of the audio, it seems a bit grainy to me, but what do I know.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 23, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
Well.....after 15 years with Logic this transition has not been easy.  I should say the transition is still in progress and will be for a while.  Logic is an open canvas albeit a linear one. Live is and is not.  Session view is giving me a workout and the arrange view is misbehaving from a logical prospect.....but the unusual sonic possibilities Im discovering within live and Max for Live are worth the headaches...... I mean record an audio clip into session and where does it go....not into the arrange view, click on the clip and there it is as a sample at the bottom of the screen.  Its not a sample its audio  >:(...... ;D  Ok, sure its a sample, everything is technically once its in the computer.  Ive got markers appearing all over the place that to the best of my knowledge I did not summon that mess up the loop progress....and I dont use loops thanks you.  Thats "original" never heard before 24bit audio that just happens to be looping.....so there is a fair bit of unknown territory to discover.  I think it comes down to treating every audio track I record as a sample or a sample of say a minimoog even if it was a real one...live will treat as such, it does not discriminate.  The creative possibilities are exciting.  The sense that the computer/daw is conforming / constricting my work flow is unsettling.   Such is the learning curve
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 23, 2014, 07:35:50 PM
Hi Loren.....Just posted after you and did not see your post. 

I sense that I might not be able to "express myself" without the finesse of Logic or it could be Cubase for that matter as far as audio recording go.  Its early stages for me with Live and the midi manipulation with Max for live is quite something however the actual audio recording process at this point is a bit rudimentary compared to logic.  I feel Ableton created an amazing performance tool and then worked really hard to bring it towards a fully fledge Daw.  Its close but working with audio is much harder in Live. The software seems to want to make you conform to its rules.  Probably just trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

I will say its the best integration of soft synths, samplers and FX ive come across.

Interesting you  say that Live is "grainy in quality", I think your right, it is that way by default not only as a possible signature sound but also because granular synthesis is abound, really it is all over the place. like it or not, if a daw can have such a thing.

Anyway I am excited about the software and will adapt my work flow as need be.

 
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 24, 2014, 03:25:47 PM
Been working all day with Live 9 and I suspect that much of what I said above maybe more frustration than fact.....I think in digital audio Im the old school tape splicer that does it himself and does not rely on quantization but rather nudges things into place.  Live does some much, or one could say takes away many of those duties.  Recorded 4 scenes today of an electronica flavor to feel Lives tight rhythmic structuring ( I have no idea what that actually means) ;D   It feels good!  Still having conflicts between audio/midi clips and straight audio recorded directly into the arrange view as I would in Logic.  Clips play but audio in arrange view does not.

Any Live users on this Forum?
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: El culto on June 24, 2014, 04:37:30 PM
Quote from: Julio Di Benedetto

Any Live users on this Forum?

Yes, even though I use it in Rewire mode only! Whatīs your question?

Greetings ,
Tomas
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 24, 2014, 06:26:44 PM
Hi Tomas...the list is too long to get into  ::).....just curious who in our community uses it.  I appreciate you setting yourself up for some novice questions.  Actually Im not even certain what to ask yet.  The answer often depends on how good the question is!  This is just me taking up bandwidth.

Thanks
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 25, 2014, 05:01:18 AM
Quote from: Julio Di Benedetto

Any Live users on this Forum?

Yes, even though I use it in Rewire mode only! Whatīs your question?

Greetings ,
Tomas

Actually Tomas how do you Rewire Live......do you create in Live and send it into Cubase or something like that?
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 25, 2014, 05:41:48 AM
Just watched a quick tutorial on using Live as a slave and Logic 9 as master....very cool.  Turns Live into a very large and powerful software instrument.  Ive known of Rewire for years but never needed it or thought to use.  Glad you mentioned Tomas. Thanks
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: El culto on June 25, 2014, 09:49:16 AM
Just watched a quick tutorial on using Live as a slave and Logic 9 as master....very cool.  Turns Live into a very large and powerful software instrument.  Ive known of Rewire for years but never needed it or thought to use.  Glad you mentioned Tomas. Thanks

Hi Julio,

yes, thats what iīm doing (but with Cubase) for many years and with that you have the best of both worlds  :D Havenīt tested it with Logic because with Cubase itīs running extremely smooth!

Donīt like Live for Audio either but their build-in instruments are amazing and I like to have them used in Cubase…so, if you donīt have problems with the Rewire connection thatīs the way to combine it.

Greetings,
Tomas
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: LNerell on June 25, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
Just watched a quick tutorial on using Live as a slave and Logic 9 as master....very cool.  Turns Live into a very large and powerful software instrument.  Ive known of Rewire for years but never needed it or thought to use.  Glad you mentioned Tomas. Thanks

I've used Rewire with Reason, never thought of using it with Live, good idea!  8) Rewire comes in handy once in a while, just remember when you get your Rewire tracks all set the way you want them to record them in Logic so they can be part of the final session in case at some time in the distant future you need to go back and redo something. I did that with one track with some drum parts in Reason and I lost the original Reason session so that track is lost forever.  :'(
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on June 25, 2014, 07:30:42 PM
Live 9 Rewired to Logic Pro (9) works really well....this is going to be sonically a very powerful and creative partnership between these to Daws.  I agree the live soft synths are very good and can create timbres I have not heard before and even though they are little small the design is very easy to use and then of course there is Max and those fx and synths.

I can see It could be  a challenge run 2 daws with possible sessions getting lost or corrupted..I will have to keep a clean and organized computer.

Im very excited about all this...... :)
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on July 22, 2014, 05:30:25 AM
Any further thoughts Julio ?

I was given a (legit) copy of Live Intro by a friend who got it when he bought 'Push', I can't yet determine how I may (or may not) use it regarding arrangements.

cheers
Pete
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on July 22, 2014, 02:48:38 PM
Hi Pete,

Ive been away from the studio the past few weeks on vacation and have not got back into the learning curve again...shortly though, however I do feel that I will work with Live and Logic together via rewire....this is cool.  I will say having worked with audio in Logic forever its strange in Live because it wants to take over and turn your music into neat packages of perfect timed audio which could be useful but I work very loosely when writing music and live's constraints Im not sure about.  If I was just recording audio from external synths as I do in logic, Live would not be a good option for me, logic is better at audio or I should say I like the way Logic handles audio better. 

The really mysterious part of Live is the Session window....I quiet like not see the audio or midi scrolling by.  It becomes sort of a palette of sounds to be triggered and this I feel will be the exciting part of working in live. 
 
While on vacation I had my iPad with me and from time to time created a Scape in Eno's App and it occurred to me that the way Scape triggers sounds could be a good way to work in Live Sesson via a Push or Launch Pad with you the musician as the random element.  Nothing new Im sure but from an ambient perspective it makes sense and the level of surprise....those sonic accidents that are so sweet.  I think what I described would be a great way to perform "live" with Live.

Also the soft synths and sampler synths in Live 9 suite are quite extraordinary which I realize you wont have in Live intro, well maybe some. 

Load it up Pete....try it on for size.  It could be another way to work or an addition to your work flow in place.

Heres a little video of Christopher Willets talking about Push....something that makes me excited about Live.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkHpMla8EI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkHpMla8EI)
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on July 23, 2014, 01:28:05 AM
Thanks for your feedback Julio !

I will spend some more time with it, I think having different applications that do things in different ways is a good thing. I find myself going into 'repeat mode' regarding processes that yield useful results, but I'm always keen to try new things to add variety / stop me going into 'auto-pilot'.

I get the impression that having some kind of controller to launch clips is pretty integral to Live (?) . I've just bought a Korg PadKontrol and that works with FL Studio's performance mode in a similiar way (I think).  Interesting to see all those Youtube vids of people playing with controllers / Live almost as an 'instrument', in it's own way.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on July 23, 2014, 04:45:08 AM
  Interesting to see all those Youtube vids of people playing with controllers / Live almost as an 'instrument', in it's own way.

I agree, to full appreciate Live a controller of some sort is need and Live does become an instrument.  Its very different to most daw's.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on July 27, 2014, 01:39:13 PM
Great video, I love the bit at 3:00 (ish) - "one of the most beautiful chords in the universe" ! Good points about moving away from the (piano) keyboard, a friend who has 'Push' says the same.

I've been playing around with Live Intro and a Novation Launchkey 25 and I'm starting to see lots of possibilities. It's a completely different way of doing things that i'm used to and that's the appeal of it (in someways). I think I may have to get a Launchpad (mini) to start to delve into 'clipology' some more. The Novation 'in control' is very interesting too.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on July 27, 2014, 07:25:19 PM
I love that too about " one of the most beautiful chords in the universe" and it is a very pretty chord.  Im looking at Push in the very near future for myself.

I cant believe its be more than two weeks and I haven't open up Live of logic nor tuned on a synth....be working on some photo projects.  After a break from delving deep into Live Im almost hesitant to jump back in.....very strange!
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on August 05, 2014, 04:06:18 PM
So I loaded up Live  today after about a month and really liked the sessions I had done but stared blankly at the monitor not understanding what or how I had done them.  Its not back to square one though the excitement of new ways to work have be hijacked by my time away.   ???
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on August 06, 2014, 03:16:29 AM
Julio,

I know what you mean, I've spent a lot of time on programs / plugins etc. and am still not sure what I may (or may not) do with them. Saying that though, I feel this exploration time is never wasted, even if there is very little to show for it, in terms of 'output'. It feeds into other things, over time.

Currently, I can see me using Live primarily as a sample-mangler, of sorts. The arrangement side of things I'm still unsure about.

Here's my Novation controllers / Live setup, I'm still messing about with possibilities, but these units make a lot more sense of the whole 'Live thing'. For one thing, To be able to do all that real time tweaking, is very interesting, as well as the clip launching thing. The Launchpad mini (in particular) is really good, I wish I'd looked at one years ago.


(http://www.petekelly.eclipse.co.uk/novation_gear.jpg)


Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on August 23, 2014, 02:22:56 AM
Upgrade offer (until Sept 10th), if you have a Lite or Intro license:
https://www.ableton.com/en/live/feature-comparison/#live_buy (https://www.ableton.com/en/live/feature-comparison/#live_buy)

I'm tempted ! I'm now using two Launchpads with this feller's fiendishly complex, but very useful script for launchpads and Live:
http://www.nativekontrol.com/LPC-Live_2.html (http://www.nativekontrol.com/LPC-Live_2.html)

For me, this is a really interesting combination. I've always been interested in looping - not 'sound on sound', but setting up a number of sounds to cycle around and to be able to start and stop them / change the loop lengths as a 'live take' of sorts, which I record and pick out the best bits afterwards.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on September 02, 2014, 01:03:12 AM
Well I succumbed to their offer and bought the full (standard) version. I was looking at the suite version, but even though I liked some of the included synths, the Max for Live thing wasn't really for me.

Looking forward to having a new DAW to peruse and hopefully inspire some new processes.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Altus on September 03, 2014, 03:57:23 AM
Looking forward to having a new DAW to peruse and hopefully inspire some new processes.

I hear you on that. I love FL Studio because I've been using it for over a decade, but it's easy to fall into similar pattern when creating new work.

Have fun!  ;D
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on September 03, 2014, 05:40:52 AM
Nice compact setup there Pete.......one reason that I got Live Suite was for Max which is really good for audio manipulation and there are a few very interesting synths built with Max.  The other reason was the entire soft synths collection which is unique.  Live Suite is a lot of money to put down in one go, though I think its worth it because not only did I get a new work flow but a battery of inspiring synths / samplers.  Actually the sampler implementation in Live has made me think and feel different about what can be done....never really got it samples or samplers before.

Below is a video that turned me on to what Max for Live could do...very exciting!

Max for Live: The Monolake Granulator on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/21755943)
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: petekelly on September 03, 2014, 06:23:49 AM
Cheers Mike, I've actually really tried to learn more about FL recently, I've really gotten into what it can do. I still very much like it, but I'm not 100% keen on everything in the program, hence I decided to look at Live to compliment it.

Julio, my set-up has gotten even simpler ! The Novation 25 is on ebay and I'm using two Launchpad minis. The thinking behind that is I can alter many things at one time with two of them. Yes, the Monolake granulator - that was the one that got me into all things granular, some years ago. In fact, I bought Reaktor primarily for that reason, as it has many granular things. I use them primarily with tonal / sonorous sources and 'scan' through them to get a bit more harmonic interest.


Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on September 24, 2014, 05:46:46 AM
Came across this video today showing how to record audio directly from live into Logic using a device call Soundflower.  I assume the implementation will be very similar for other daws such as Cubase etc.....If you want to work with audio and dont want to do the re wire midi thing this is so simple.  Whats also cool is you can use all of Live's and Max for live FX which when rewired and Live is a slave these FX are disable. 

This is new to me and perhaps is common knowledge but if you love the sounds from Live but dont like the interface so much and prefer audio over midi this could be the answer!

Link to video :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2-z1TFR7RU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2-z1TFR7RU)

Soundflower looks like a Mac only device and can be found here  http://rogueamoeba.com/freebies/soundflower/ (http://rogueamoeba.com/freebies/soundflower/)  Originally developed by Cycle 74.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on September 24, 2014, 06:19:16 AM
FYI...the Soundflower setup works perfectly....just record a Live soft synth part into a piece Im working on in Logic  :)
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: Julio Di Benedetto on September 25, 2014, 11:39:42 AM
Update....ran audio from a hardware synth into live 9 and processed the audio with a few Max for live FX and ran the output via Soundflower straight into an audio track in logic to record.   8)

There are some issues with latency so precise keyboard work with short to no attack time will be noticeable, pads etc with longer attacks...no problem.
Title: Re: Ableton Live ?
Post by: johny.gtr on November 20, 2014, 06:43:07 AM
I used to use Live for recording and mixing but never try Max4Live and Session mode which are most popular in EDM crowd.
As for me, Live is very intuitive for scissors/faders/automation panning/volume works. Also Ableton crashed about 3-4 times for two years and has no issues with my audio interfaces.
The most annoying feature for me in Live is defaul-on warp function. Sometimes ago I spent several hours in finding why field recording parts sound so artifical  ;D