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Messages - Ekstasis

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1
24 bit is definitely no placebo effect.. It is always frustrating to have to down sample to 16 bit.. When you  hear such drastic difference.. But it does also matter what music..  But especially with ambient music I hear a difference..  If I buy an digital flac album I would easily choose the 24 bit if there was a choice.

Many blind tests regarding 16 vs 24 bit have proved that peopled can´t hear a difference. In any case, when it comes to CD anything has to go down to 16 bit anyway. To hear a difference especially (!) in ambient music is a huge myth for me. When it come to classical music with a lot (!) of dynamics there is a reason for this higher bit/sample rate rate, but when when it comes to Ambient I don´t know any music in this genre using the full dynamic making it worth at all to for the additional headroom nor a higher sampling rate.

Are people really be able to hear a difference between 192kbit and 320kbit mp3?   ;D

But OK, it´s usual that those believers feel better if they can say they feel have the tools or special gear (the price for the additional investment in those cases needs an explanation too) or rendering options. I´m pretty sure, if I would offer 2 unnamed files for a blind testing concerning this issue, those people would avoid to be part of that test.

Two unnamed files created to prove your point or two unnamed files to show there is a difference.  ?
Tests can be designed with different goals. 
I myself I hear a difference and I know a lot of other people to do,  you need sensitive equipment and ears and know what you are looking for.  In heavy high energy distortion  guitar I think the 16 bit have harsher edges to me. 

I think it is funny say  classical music has more complex audio information then in ambient music.
Ambient can be as complex as audibly possible. Classical music in general consider very lofi in comparison to modern music.  Adding max amounts of transients is usually the best way to find differences in 24 bit or 16 bit  or different sample rates.  On all my recordings in my signal chain I always use audio processors to maximize transients,  especially with ambient there is nothing worse then ambient where all transients are drown into reverb tails,  the transients bring out all details and making complex audio harmonics.  Yeah so the amount  of transient information is probably one thing that matter,  without the complex audio information it might be possible there is no difference in sonic experience in resolution or sample rates

2
I do not mind Klaus shulze releases but it his last album was very bad.. He have become lazy sounds like he is using only omnisphere presets now days.. But I follow the Berlin school genre.. But I think it is Mario schönwalder and Co that have most to offer to the Berlin school genre now.
The free system projekt i wish did release more was many years ago now.  Same with pollard.

3
I am really impressed by what Antelope are doing lately. I still think the overall most impressive piece in thier line right now is the zen studio. It's just a killer forward thinking complete package.

As such I can't wait to check out the new devices they announced at AES

Yes zen studio is impressive,  the only weak link is the monitor controller in that unit,  I wonder if it can be bypassed totally  to use an external unit?  Not done any research how their mic pres perform I guess it is the same pres we will find in mp32. But I guess in the league of solid state and transpercry they perform quite well.

Satori seem like a very good monitor controller,  if it had the same dual dac design as pure2 it has an advantage over the competing products for sure.  With the current price it does compete with avocet mkii. Dangerous source remain the best price value,  Antelope have been giving us a hint that a monitor controller to compete with dangerous source are in the works...







4
24 bit is definitely no placebo effect.. It is always frustrating to have to down sample to 16 bit.. When you  hear such drastic difference.. But it does also matter what music..  But especially with ambient music I hear a difference..  If I buy an digital flac album I would easily choose the 24 bit if there was a choice.

5
I miss Thom Brennan, I hope he start to release music again.
I also miss steve roach more steady flow of releases, considering he is lives in an old age he should probably
release as much as he can while he can. His last releases is going towards right direction.

6
I have decided to sit still in my boat..which means I will keep my Eclipse.
Even though it seem that the Pure 2 have better specs, from what I understand, pure 2 have the same DAC design as Eclipse with the difference  that the pure 2 have dual DAC, one per channel. Anyway, the prices have been listed,and just to tell you, this is very good value, probably unbeatable value for what you are getting.. Their agressive price setting for their latest products is really making changes in the market for sure.

7
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Seaboard Piano
« on: October 23, 2014, 12:04:25 PM »
good idea..but I wish I could have the same technology but in standard keyboad, I have always been wanting to wiggle the keys just like it was string to do vibratos..

8
This is a pretty well known article, on studio forums, there is usually two parties, one for and one against bitrates.
If this article was made so that the opposite side could respond to each argument in the article I am sure the opposite side would
sound just  reasonable.  we do choose what HiFi philosophies  to believe of course as I said there will always be different parties.

I think it is a mistake to generalize this, for me it depends on more WHAT you use this high sample rate for,  and also what DAC design is used, to say that high sample rates is useless for all designs ,  the main argument with higher sample rate is to reduce processing in the DAC,  to reduce the need for upsampling in the interpolator component in the DAC, the DACs today are working in 5 bit audio, which needs  audio that comes into the DAC needs to be upsampled up to 30 times of the audio you feed the DAC with.  In a perfect world you would not need any upsampling within the DAC, but all DACs today need it (besides DSD format DACs) since the DAC chips today is working in 5 bit audio. So the argument of high sample rate seem to be mostly about the internal processing and not about the actual human/physical abilities to hear the difference of the high sample rate, it is more about internal signal processing, and how the DAC is responding to a higher sample rate and having a less need for upsampling,

In the real world however,  problems such as CPU power is a bigger problem, I am still using 44khz myself because of limited CPU power, and this problem will most likely remain for a long time too, because intel has a slow progression and within the small steps of cpu power progression software developers are also fast to respond with more cpu hungry plugins, so I do not seem myself going over to 96k in the next 5 years to be honest. The other problem is that all music today is downsampled to 44khz anyway,  even though lossless services do exist they are still using the CD format often, 16bit/44khz. To record something in high sample rate  and down sample it later just seem like a big hassle for nothing.

High sample rate is simply something for the future,  from a sonic quality perspective there is only benefits,  but the drawbacks with higher sample rate are bigger,   cpu power is one of them, but also file size and also in the age of audio streaming the network bandwidth, which drains much battery from people with mobile devices etc,   we need more headroom in both processing power in computers, network speeds and also power in mobile devices until we are mature to change to a higher sample rate standard.  I do hope however that more music is released in higher bit resolution/sample rate.  I myself find always that when I downsample my projects to 16 bit there is a big difference in sound quality,  and from wav to mp3 is even omre noticeable, I would not have heard the difference before, but with the more sensitive equipment i hear now it is more obvious,  with that said.. 99% of the music I listen to is MP3,  but the reason why is because of the problems I mentioned earlier,  file size is a one of them, and availability is another, to have a big archive of flac music takes just a lot of space.. but it is only when you compare the mp3 and flac version side by side you know what you are missing.. Spotify shold be illegal, they are the biggest threat to music, they are like a weapon of mass destruction against music, their OGG music sounds just terrible..destroys all what makes music good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvrxq0tCvlo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK2ZtU4K9mw

9
Now Playing / Re: Currently listening, part 1
« on: October 12, 2014, 12:41:54 PM »


OM Gethsemane (w/lyrics)


OM Gethsemane

10
Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: Steve Roach - Bloodmoon Rising
« on: October 12, 2014, 07:10:55 AM »
really good work steve roach.
I have had fever and been sick in my stomach.. not able to eat,drink or go up from bed..
For this I found this album was really good, my head felt so "heavy" so this music did match good..
I am still sick..there is nothing worse.

12
I did a long extensive research on the matter about 1 year ago,  my conclusion was that for me in my situation it was more priority to get grounded power.
Another consensus did seem to be that a lot of these cheaper products can do more harm then good, but in extreme situations where the power is very dirty and it really affects your gear they can be good. But a lot of the cheaper products on the market will actually make the sound quality worse, the filters can be destructive to transients.  I would say a cheaper box might be more better in use on live gigs then in a private budget studio. If you have grounded power in your house it should be safe, and no need for a cheap furman box.

If you really want to make a good difference there seemed to be no shortcuts, the balanced Furman boxes was still on top of the list for most people, but as Julio mentioned they are very expensive, and might not be the first gear you "want" to buy, for a private studio.  But the longer the studio grow and the more expensive gear you get you come to a point where the Balanced furman box might not be a big cost in percentage of the general gear.

Another point to consider when reading discussions on other forums about this object.. it is really hard to find a consensus  the opinions are very very individual, every person seem to have a totally different view on the subject, and the discussions gets quickly in to really hardcore scientific discussion which only a real electrician can really understand fully.  I have been recommended isolation transformers if you use non grounded power, to create it s own "grounded power" for the gear, but then there is also a lot of people who said it is useless bla bla bla

My reserach did anyway end up with not investing in any cheap furman box..
in a longer pespective it might be wise to invest in some of the balanced boxes by furman, but in current studio situation
it would not make sense, since it would be too big cost considering the total value of my studio gear.

13
Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: On Inspiration - Chuck Close quote
« on: September 12, 2014, 03:47:22 PM »
I am talking about a symbiotic relationship with the gear and human expression.  The essence "the sound" is created in electronic music in most cases by oscillators which then goes thru filters thru a longer signal chain.  The pure sound output is created by the electronics, the arist control the electronics to make it sound like he want...   The electronic is creating the "substance" while the human interacting with the electronics is creating the form... different  oscillators  and filters will produce a different substance and create a different essence.


14
on ebay - £92 inc P+P.

Cable £21.60 :
http://www.tvcables.co.uk/cgi-bin/tvcables/profigold-oxya5601.html


Nice Price...Wonder how it compare with the JDS... which seem to get more praise on head fi.

15
Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: On Inspiration - Chuck Close quote
« on: September 12, 2014, 11:51:54 AM »
@Pete: I´m really sorry that the usual suspects once more destroy a thread because they can´t cope with an opinion I´ve shared! (but OK we know this already)

Quote from: Ekstasis
 

...music which is essence is produced by the gear itself




I have read a lot of opinions in my life, but that is definitely one for my top 3!

You need to read again, In your hurry you did maybe miss that the point was made towards "electronic music"  and abstract sound worlds to be exakt, and not more "melody oriented" music where music is produced more by humans the electronic equipment. So what are you are saying here in "electronic" music the music is not created by electronic equipment ? I had no idea you can create electronic music without electricity or electronic equipment.. maybe I have missed something ?
In ambient music the reverb processor is what is creating a lot of the essence, I should not need to really tell you such fundamental things.
But I know for sure that with your ableton live and your magic toolbox you can create any reverb processors sound with one click no reason for gear.

16
Now Playing / Re: Currently listening, part 1
« on: September 12, 2014, 11:05:19 AM »

17
Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: On Inspiration - Chuck Close quote
« on: September 12, 2014, 10:53:51 AM »
Okay, Mister Fabric (or whatever your name is this week)

I see that you are very opinionated and very keen to tell people all about your opinions.
I'II be blunt, from what I've seen of your opinions on ambient music, I'm not interested in them.

You've released nothing and yet you preach to people who have and your fixation with gear is really
tiresome. Of course I know gear is important, but to a much lesser degree than you think, you have to
learn technique and practices, which are transferable whatever gear you use. I can play any half
decent guitar, it doesn't have to be a Les Paul Black Beauty. 

I am however interested to hear that you are a graphic artist, care to post a link to your work ?

Also, re-read the original post and don't resort to swearing, we're grown-ups here.

I have seen some work from cosmic fabric art, and there is no doubt about it, his skill is very professional he have a real talent for sure..I was impressed.. (does his opinion hold more weight more now ? *sigh*)

18
Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: On Inspiration - Chuck Close quote
« on: September 12, 2014, 10:51:52 AM »
It's very little to do with equipment, studios or whatever - it's the desire for self expression, that is paramount.

Man, why don't you mix then with some desktop pc speakers and the built in soundcard in your pc?

It has to do with the quality of the gear too
, or you might have trouble delivering the best sound to your public. That's why pro gear exists so you have access to tools way above the average consumer equipment. For me creativity is something spontaneous and accessible, that's why I love a lot of knobs and keys in front of me.

Yeah Kitaro made amazing tracks and he created polyphony by painfully recording over and over again to tape his mono synths. But do you want to go again to those times, do you want the technical part to be 98% and the rest the creative part?

I'm a Computer graphics artist, and a 1500 euros monitor is not enough to see if all my colors are correct, I still have to check my work in 3 or 4 monitors to make an average. And I'm not talking about particular colors, but a general feeling that is lost just by viewing your work in another screen. If your 150 euros monitor shows black as gray, that simple detail affects all the colors.

If my graphics card has very little VRAM I can't work with 4k textures and I have to work in little parts losing the work as a whole.

If all my work depends on a 150 euros TFT monitor I would be fucked, plain and simple, no matter how creative I am.

My answer to this thread is simple, deep inside you want all that pro gear, but because some of you can't make a living based in your unsuccessful work, you dig these quotes from famous people.

The conclusion is whatever gear you are using will produce a certain output, this output is what your senses are working with which itself will affect your artistic decisions in an conscious or non-concious way.,  I think it is mostly people with more budget oriented gear that have a very strong need for defence and to point out that high end end gear will not affect your artistic decisions or quality, for me the gear has an symbiotic relationship with the artist, what ever gear we are using will affect our senses and artistic decisions, depending on artistic context.. in some other music style the real focus is more about song writing and melody rather the creating abstract sound worlds which mostly is the musical context which is being discussed here. I think the statements from the "budget" camp and that the gear is not symbiosis with the artist and the expression is absurd, it feels more like an excuse to not buy better gear,  but whatever makes the work done and you have 100% satisfaction there is really no need for more expensive gear.. you as the artists yourself has to make these decision what is important for you. 

I think what cosmic fabcric is saying is all reasonable, and especially when we are talking about abstract soundworlds "music" like this, music  which is essence is produced by the gear itself, certain color of certain gear could therefor give a certain "soul" which can't really be recrated with another gear..some gear have such unique sound signature that there is really no shortcuts around it, you can get close though..it all depends on how close to "perfection" you want to become.

Tomas opinion is that all gear sound the same , all EQs sound the same, all effects and compressors sound the same, gear does not matter in the hands of a true "master"  like thoma$ cause whetever gear he want to replicate he just need to open a window in his ableton live.  Respect goes both ways around,  I respect other artits gear, whatever you are satisfied with but there is really no need to piss on other peoples gear, and tell people that you have wasted money to buy good gear, in is childish and just a sign of jealously if not..

As an artist it is probably not a good idea to visit this forum, I can't really say it is an inspiring environment, when there is people like thoma$ who are going to make fun of people who have better gear then himself, it is just not an inspiring envoirment to be in really, sometimes I wonder what I am doing here really ?  but again if there was a way to hide thoma$ posts from this forum it would have at a totally different vibe, his arrogant macho style, laughing in people faces,  totally humiliating people but in an non-direct way to avoid himself to get banned, I wish he had to balls to really say his personal attacks in a more direct and non cryptic way, , but to me either way is as worse.. but if he did he would just get warning from the mods just like cosmic fabcric.. but as a artist I really wonder why I should be here, this non respect for other peoples gear and decision is not acceptable to me.. and people get ridiculed for buying professional equipment, but if you have not released and album you are not allowed to have good equipment since only established are allowed to own expensive equipment but not "upcoming" artists in there beginning of the career, the truth to be told here is as a new upcoming artists, it is harder to get your voice heard in this ocean of already existing music it was easier before, now new and upcoming artists have to wait a lot longer to release music if you want something that will take a certain genre further.

Also this talk "you have not released anything so there for your opinion" is worthless.. it is not really an inspiring environment for an upcoming artist to meet such comments,  even if you have not released an album you might have tons of years of experience within creating sounds and music.

19
Listening: Podcasts, Mixes, and Music Sample Clips / Re: Ambient on youtube
« on: September 12, 2014, 03:30:24 AM »
Of course Mike's music is great, to me that is obvious, he's one of my top artists. The question here is about visuals on ambient music and how that affects a track perception.

for me personally the best ambient does not need an visuals added.  For me it destroys music in most cases and is mostly a "distraction" which does not mirror my own mind and inner visuals.  Some labels use beautiful visuals to give more substance into the music for commercials purposes, but when you then listen the music at home alone without youtube visuals it is not as interesting anymore.

20
what is the price for it ?

I am in the process of buying a new budget headphone amp/dac.

My result of my reserach did lead to JDS o2/odac combo.
epiphany-acoustics have the exact same internal design with a different aesthetic
for EU users.

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