[ Hypnos Forum ]

By "cheesy" you mean the "best thing that ever appeared on network television", right? 

I did try to go through half the first season..I just could not understand why people adore this show soo much...
maybe I will some time in the future.

Official Trailer | ALMOST HUMAN | FOX BROADCASTING

is it released on bluray yet ?
Cause I do not watch TV.

I know you asked for 3 samples, I find it a big problem to give you 3 samples that showcase all I like I have no "ultimate samples"  I am afraid, but you got the list of the albums I like so you get the idea what I am looking for.

Do not worry the list was copy paste it did not took me much time..

You are clearly the master of presumptions! Please quote the person who said such a statement in this thread!….i´m sorry to say, but you won´t find anyone!

Well I was reading it before, by more then one person, saying that the with the right "craft" you can make cheap equipment sound better then expensive equipment if you do not have the "craft".. I agree with this, but if you have the craft more high end equipment will of course sound better. My argument is why be happy with something if you can make it sound even better ?  To some people the limit seem to be even reached even with low and mid end equipment, it is personal how far you will take your sound and how much you focus on the details.   Some people send there music to mastering, I want a mastered sound always, using mostly anaouge outboard gear to create that extra "magic" in the music and take all together make all transients sound wonderful etc.  I can do all this in the box but I want to take it to the next level with the real thing instead of emulations.

samples for theRefract  album

http://www.amazon.com/Refract-Nick-Parkin/dp/B00ALBNHXU

Quote from: Immersion

I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.

Immersion, i think you have a fundamental misunderstood about what people complaining!

Nobody is saying, that good quality isn´t appreciated - but it might be helpful to re-read your posts again and to understand how you express yourself! The problem is, that you speak about FACTS (!!!!) to whatever issue it comes. Examples from your latest post?

"To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day.."

"I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique"

As long as you speak only for your opinion then express it this way and don´t include ALL the others with your FACTS…you know as it is…opinions are like assholes…anybody has one 

If you believe in what your are searching for…go for it but it´s a mistake to tell others what is the BEST, as the BEST does´t exist AT ALL….you can have the "best" gear but may fail to make music or to end up to be just a gear collector. At the end of the day, no one of the audience cares if you have Lexicon, Avaton, UAD or whatever…..for them ONLY the whole content, message and mood of the music is important - they give a shit about converters, bit rate and if the source is analogue or 100% digital. The only person who has a problem with this is actually YOU as you claim to be the "sound police".

Here are plenty people with enough experiences and they know very well what and how to archive results….if you talk ultimate about X or Y then at last prove it in some ways…either by audio examples, links or whatever…but just speaking ultimately about something without any example isn´t valuable - neither for professionals nor for starters in this forum.

Well I guess I am not the only who to to make opinions to Facts... I try at least to be open I am always talking about that it is only it is own inner satisfaction that really matters.. You should make music for your own stimulation not for others in first hand.

Regarding soundtoys and H8000FW,  it is a matter of preference of course, but some person in this thread said that he had no need for h8000fw cause he use soundtoys, he also said that eventide was behind it, and for that reason it must also be equally as good ? should that be taken was fact ?
I have tried many plugs and when it comes "True the source" soundtoys is one of the worst,  I wish you was here so I can prove to you.

Well I was hoping about have a discussion about how creating the best sound quality possible, of course, what is best for me does not fit all,  the main argument here is that is not worth to invest money in "too expensive" equipment, cause you can mask it with eq and different mixing techniques.
I just find it to be a tragic attitude , me as a fan of pro audio would never agree with that, I just guess that some people are happy with less, some people want more, and where small differences becomes gigantic.  I know for sure that my analouge equipment I will buy will be a good investment, it will sound even better then my digital emulations.

well, you are asking for sound examples, but if you have been reading my earlier post I think you should remember
that the production should convey the atmosphere it is projecting...For instance I can really like Oophoi's more metallic lo-fi sound..
But I really like steve roach big analogue sound and robert rich...I like Asianova's really lo-fi sound.  It does not need to sound extremely high quality and super clean
it is not what it is about.

I can give you atleast of my favorite ambient albums in no particual order

Aeoga - Zenith Beyond the Helix-Locus (2005)
Aeoga - COAV (2004)
Alio Die & Mathias Grassow - Expanding Horizon (2002)
Arcana - Le serpent rouge (2004)
Asianova - Suite Dreams (2004)
Asianova - Love Like a Veiled Threat (2005)
Asianova - At the Last Gate (2006)
Asianova - Terminal Ferocity (2006)
Elend - Sunwar the Dead (2004)
Christine Groult - La condition captive (2007)
Halo Manash - Par-Antra I: VIR (2004)
Halo Manash - SYoMA (2004)
Byron Metcalf - The Shaman's Heart (2005)
Oophoi - Athlit (2002)
Oophoi - Signals From the Great Beyond (2005)
Oöphoi & Faryus - Forgotten Rituals (2007)
Oöphoi & Tau Ceti - Algol (2006)
Nick Parkin - Refract (2006)
Brian Parnham - Mantle (2007)
Robert Rich - Below Zero (1998)
Robert Rich - Somnium (2001)
Robert Rich - Illumination (2007)
Robert Rich - Live Archive Volume 4 | Alien Zoology: Live at Morrison Planetarium, San Francisco, December 9 2001 (2009)
Robert Rich & B. Lustmord - Stalker (1995)
Robert Rich & Lisa Moskow - Yearning (1995)
Steve Roach - Dreamtime Return (1988)
Steve Roach - The Magnificent Void (1996)
Steve Roach - Early Man (2000)
Steve Roach - Midnight Moon (2000)
Steve Roach - Darkest Before Dawn (2002)
Steve Roach - Mystic Chords & Sacred Spaces (2003)
Steve Roach - Immersion: Two (2006)
Steve Roach - Immersion: Three (2007)
Steve Roach - A Deeper Silence (2008)
Steve Roach & Loren Nerell - Terraform (2006)
Steve Roach, Byron Metcalf & Mark Seelig - Mantram (2004)
Seofon - Zero Point (2001)
Ure Thrall - The Bone Tree Soundtracks Vol. 2: Infinitree (2004)
U-R-I - The Bone Tree Soundtracks vol 1 (2000)
Voice of Eye - Transmigration (1995)
Zoät·Aon - Star Autopsy (2005)

Voice of Eye - Transcendence

List of non ambient prodcutions remember youtube is not the best audio quality

Dolorian - the one whose name has no end

Ephel Duath - "Crystalline Whirl"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9WW4pP

Deathspell Omega - Abscission (high quality)

Esoteric - The Blood Of The Eyes

CULT OF LUNA - "Waiting for You"

EVOKEN | The Last Of Vitality

Neurosis - At The End Of The Road [live visuals]

Virus - Inward Bound

Gorguts - Obscura [FULL ALBUM]

Isis - In Fiction HD 1080p

Ved Buens Ende - Written in Waters [Full - HD]

I can go on an on.

Quote from: Immersion

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before.

I just have some Neumann´s and they aren´t expensive….but they are more expansive than Behringer…..but not as much as expansive than yours. So it seems like expansive is relative - right? So in your theory your monitors are better then mine just because they are more expansive - thats a funny logic….I always thought monitors are working tools and not a replacement for libido fixation 

When it comes ti microphones there is some very good cheap microphones too especially from china...
When it comes to studio monitors there is without doubt a connection between sound quality and price. 3 way monitors are usually a lot more expensive.
Personally I would only go for a 3 way monitor it makes such big difference.

Your speaker might sound better but not more "true" perhaps, what speakers are you using if I might ask ?
I am sure you use professional studio monitors... with quite flat frequency response.... Maybe they sound "better" but it is not about which sound better.
I would not say my speaker sound "good" they just sound "true" they can sound ugly and totally disgusting if the production is that...that is how it should be..
but it makes a lot of music sound terrible that is for sure.. they are brutally honest... a lot of albums that sounded good before does not sound good any more in my speakers.

I think you can get speakers that sound very good for cheaper money but to have them sound true, they go up in price...

Quote from: Immersion on November 23, 2013, 01:51:42 PM

Quote from: mgriffin on November 23, 2013, 10:07:07 AM

I'm pleased to see how many people feel as I do, that the endless pursuit of the most expensive gear is actually a distraction from the preferable goal of understanding your gear, and doing something interesting with it.

Or maybe we all have different bars of sound quality ?
I do not buy your argument that cheap equipment can sounds as good as expensive (more good equipment) it is nothing then a plain lie and that is attitues like that
I think is the last thing ambient artists needs...

WTF, who are you talking to?

"A plain lie?" First of all, I never said cheap equipment sounds as good as higher-quality equipment. Nobody else said that, either -- the closest was Paul saying it's possible to make good-sounding recordings with less expensive gear if your really know what you're doing.

The nearest thing I said was that it's more important to use good equipment and understand how to use it, than to endlessly chase the most expensive item in each category. I guarantee you haven't heard a decrease in the sound quality of recordings I've mastered since I sold the Cranesong and started using a Presonus Firestudio as the interface with my computer. One box cost $4,000, the other was less than $1,000, yet the switch from one to the other does not result in worse-sounding recordings coming out of my studio, either my own work or the albums I master here. You might argue that the newer recordings MUST sound worse, because they went through a less expensive converter, but that simply isn't how it works in the real world.

Seriously, Immersion, I appreciate your intention to argue in favor of using good gear, but your tone is extremely condescending toward several people who certainly know more about audio recording than you do, and who have been using that knowledge to release ambient recordings into the world for many years. You're entitled to your opinion, but philosophies dreamed-up in a studio that doesn't actually record or release any work, no matter the price tag, simply don't match up to philosophies derived from practical experience.

I have explained that the craft how to use the equipment is more important, but you come to a limit where the equipment becomes a limiting factor.
You say you hear no difference now then when you had your HEDD, well are you only talking about the converters I guess so..
I am sure it would be hard to tell the difference if you have good converters.  There is a big difference between good and bad converters, but you come to a point where the converters are not the most important thing but other things in your chain, such as pre amp, transformers how hard you drive them, or even tubes if you use it.  Soo many other factors.  All I am saying I do not like people who look down on people who prefer the best possible sound quality,  I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique it is nothing wrong to that, but I prefer to have the best possible sound chain as possible I am almost picture the electrical current inside my mind, picturinge the whole audio chain for me it is a spirtial experience when I know that all these electrons pass thru the best circuits possible it give me a inner sense satisfaction, when I know the whole chain is clean.  I can of couse respect that a lot of people think this perspective is total nonsense and that I should spend money on some magic plugin instead,  But I get this kind of emotional attachment to the equipment and it givies me driving force and inspiration, that is why a lot of people like analogue gear  they have an emotional attachment to it, it is hard to feel the same way with all digital . As I say I understand that people think it is nonse, and that the only thing that matters is the final output and they do not car about the sound on an electron level, as  I said we all have different respect of the sound and perceive it different. 


I say again how important the monitors are, the better monitors you use the more details you will hear.
The need for better equipment is not really needed until you have "can hear it" for that you need enough good monitors.
Difference between monitors as we know...are huge...

Mike, well you say my tone is condescending to people well I am sorry for that, but I feel the same when people look down on professional equipment, seeing it as redundant equipment and stupid, cause it is better to buy cheaper equipment and cheat with different mixing techniques to mask it's flaws. I think it show no respect to professional audio at all with that kind of attitude, when we here people say "why should we buy this and that", well if it sounds better it should be reason enough, yet one have to argue about why to buy professional and good sounding equipment.

I use a lot of plugins to I have said that, but my VA plugs I want to use real analogue equipment, to color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc, this kind of "magic" can to some degree but done already in the DAW but all these VA plugins make my computer sink totally, I can't use it for anything else  and I get scratches in the sound constantly, when I use them.  Just one instance of Lush 101 takes almost too much already.  The main problem is that every plugs use only one core...

I do not appricate you comparing and say that this and that know more then you about audio, just because he have released and album ?
I have been recording for many years too, it is just that I have not released anything, but there is no reason to go the sandbox level and start with personal attacks,
I have not been giving any one any personal attacks, but as you said I am entitled to an opinion I am grateful for that Mike, thank you so much. 

I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.

I am not sure how people can say it was an excellent finale ?
Is Walter dead or alive in the last scene from what the looks it could be both..was a very vague end I guess that was the point...

Yeah Breaking bad was one of the absolute best series I have seen. What made it stand out was that it had longplay quality but in a tv series format..
It is not strange that it has 9.5 rating on imdb...when I saw the first episodes I could not imagine that it would be this good.

Tau Ceti - Four Short Pieces

You have come to understand and know the sound and its quality from this high end gear and this is not something that is base on how much money a person has to spend....Burl converters on uneducated  ears within the home project studio would be a colossal waste of money.  This sound has to be learned.  Sort of like asking a person to taste a Chateau Lafite Rothschild Bordeaux when they are use to drinking sweet blush zinfandel wine.  Odds are they would spit it out.

I will always push the envelope for my self and go for the best gear I can afford and sometimes more than I can afford.  The complexity that Forrest suggest can be  an issue.  A great converter feed by a crappy pre amp or front end signal path will give what on the other side.....exactly.  So generally if say Burl which is the converter most talked about in this thread is your choice then the rest of the signal path should be of a similar quality or it is a pointless venture.  There can be a good deal of maintenance involve as well.

Ive mentioned this story before and like to when too much lofty high ended - ness dominates.   Bruce Springsteen's Fans consider his album "Nebraska" his best which was recorded on an 4 track cassette deck will the "Boss" was on tour way back when.  What the fans heard was not the tape hiss and poor quality record but the heart felt words and emotion he expressed. Certainly anyone would want to be able to capture every single subtle nuance of a performance that brilliant gear can do so well but the listener at the other end will be moved by the emotion not the the converters, pre amp or microphones used.

P.S......Great post Paul!

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...
I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before. 

emotion is if you ask me superior to sonics in the essence of music... so yeah.. to use a 4 track recording and record real emotions is of course better then emotionless music with superior sonics....  but ultimately they should have both.. but most important of all it should fit the music, it is not about what sounds most "professional" which fit the music, and the inner pictures of what the music create....I see a lot of music today  where professionalism is the priority, the artist might sound very good live or on the demo recordings but in the studio you emotionless and "professional"... so yeah.. it is a thin line... personally I many times prefer the demo versions...even though they sound very bad, they have that emotion which is really beyond words...just a feeling..