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Messages - Ekstasis

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741
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 05:02:53 PM »
Alright enough for today, you have to pardon me if I was too aggressive or anything, I have been drinking some alcohol, it always make me more "open" and straight forward, so do not take it personally.

742
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:50:56 PM »

it is now cheaper then ever to create your own music, since the digital studio almost everyone can afford and home studio. People like me can't afford nothing, no cds at all almost, and no software. So in my case I would not be able to record any music at all if it wasn't for piracy.

You contradict yourself here, you say its so cheap but then claim that you can't pay for it so the only way to get it is to steal it, there is another alternative. When I was your age (I am assuming you are in your early 20s) I also could not afford all most anything, CDs, musical instruments, etc. So what did I do? I took classes at the local school to learn and use the instruments they had. I went to our local library to listen to music that I couldn't afford. Finally I did what many others have done, I got a job to buy the gear with money for said job. You obviously had some money as you have a computer to run the software on. If you continue to steal software and not pay for it then myself and others who do pay for it will have to pay more for our software in the future to make up for your selfishness. Or, the software might come with some form of dongle device (like a big hardware box) that requires it to work. In other words you'll have to buy hardware again like I had to when I was your age.


And when we are talking about pirate copies and financial losses, it is very important to clearly we are talking about an POTENTIAL loss,

You seem to be assuming that all downloads are from people who would not buy a CD in the first place. If this was the case then CD sales would not have tanked like they have with the introduction of high quality downloads. There is enough empirical evidence to indicate there is a connection between the two. As a personal example, when Terraform was released on CD the sales were much lower then expected based upon previous sales of my own releases and Steve Roach's normal sales for a new release. We found shortly after the album was released that someone had made high quality mp3s (320kps) of the tracks, had scanned all the artwork including the front cover, inside foldout, the extra postcards, and the CD itself. All were then zipped into a file and uploaded to a bittorrent site. This was the first case any of us has encountered of this kind. You could argue that no one was interested so they didn't buy the CD, well thousands of people were interested enough to at least download it. I won't argue that all of those thousands of download were potential sales, but sales have been so low that the label has yet to recoup its costs, and this has made it difficult for me now to release any new material.


I have tried to explain to you that to live and survive on making independent music is very hard and for 99,9% only a dream.

It’s always been hard but that's no excuse for being selfish and making it harder then it needs to be. Downloading at artists music and not paying for it turns that dream into a nightmare.


I have not interest to support labels in the future, we need to get rid of this middle hand, since the money gets in the wrong pocket, the artist is the one who should get the most part of the profit.


I think getting rid of labels is a bad idea, not all labels are bad. Good labels work with the artist, they provide services that help them and work more as an artist collective then a monolithic machine. One thing they can provide is a cheaper way of producing product. If they come to a replicator with several projects they can get a cheaper rate. If they have several artists they can get better distribution, etc. I think the irony of this whole free download thing is it’s made the large labels even bigger. They have slowly bought each other out to the point their are only 2 or 3 big labels which in the long run has hurt music with less competition. Less competition means less chance for interesting music to be heard. Its also forced the large labels into a corner like posture, which has fueled the whole attack on p2p sights. I think the piratebay people are seeing this first hand.


We have about 15% unemployment in Sweden, but that is already changing, since the young generation do not want to work at all, they all want to live in freedom.

Freedom to daydream all day long, to daydream about all the great art they could make if they weren't too busy daydreaming.


However, as I said, unless you have talent like Roach and do not own your own label, these is no way you can survive on cd sells, that is the reality. Some pocket money from cd sells will not help. If you have your own label and release many cds

Just so you know Steve's label is actually a joint project with Projekt Records for many of the reasons I stated above.


I advocate copyright, in the sense that if a person have done something he or she should be associated with the work and no on else, I see this is an fundamental right and important. This protection is important since it gives you the right to own the rights to your work.

If you believe this then you should allow the artist to control how they wish to have their art consumed. If artists wanted to have their music downloaded freely then their is nothing stopping them from putting it up on a website and letting any one download as they wish. Since most artist don't do this, or do this on a limited basis then they have made a choice that they do not wish to have unlimited access at such a high level.


I would rather see something like PROUT http://www.prout.net/ in the future, http://www.thevenusproject.com/ have a lot of interesting ideas as well

In my youth I had a great interest in utopian societies, I've read quite a few books on all kinds of utopias (including a few distopias), had endless debates, some friends and I even considered the possibility of starting a small commune. I should also point out that I am not a strong believer in that capitalism is the best of all worlds and am open to the possibility that their maybe something better. Having said that most of the utopian projects that are currently out there will probably never see the real light of day in our lifetimes. They are at best --  like the Venus project -- centuries away from even a remote possibility of reality. So I think its very unfair to us musicians (who make the most affordable of all the arts) to have to bare the burden of dragging everyone into these utopian dream worlds. Its not going to happen in one little corner, it’s going have to happen in a broader forum.


Thanks for your reply, You have to pardon me Loren, I can't reply to every input, cause I have mention what I want to say already in other posts...

Bu regarding the Terraform bit torrent. 1000 downloads does definitely not mean 1000 sales, if I where you I would see it only as promotion, with that assumption that no one buys an album any more without you have heard it on mp3.

Regarding the copyright...I only support non-commercial file sharing and copying, this is why I see the need of copyrights laws still.

Regarding the utopias, I agree sadly it might be no drastic change in the western world and the way we live during our short life time on this planet...
I still think that everyone have their own responsibility to support themselves, a part time job is for me the solution, to get involved in the society and the commercial world as little as possible...



743
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:35:14 PM »
I would bet that there's not one person involved in this conversation who has not made a copy of a disk (or made a mix-tape) for a friend, downloaded some rare obscure out-of-print LP, or otherwise broken copyright laws.  We've all broken a law at one point or another, some of us more often (and severely) than others.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try aspire to a higher standard.

Well everyone besides Paul Vnuk he reads the bible and would never file share cause he know what will happens if he do:)

744
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:33:26 PM »
REMEMBER THIS:
The BIG winner in this downloading p2p (etc) frenzy is the BIG internet companies who simply sell access to downloadable files by bandwidth. They are the new capitalists. They of course WANT plenty of free stuff available to download. It's straight money to them.   

Same for chinese and russian music download sites that charge a dollar or two per album ... they are riding on the backs of other people's labour. They are what the modern internet leads to and they are the scammers -- they are getting paid for the "free" albums and programs you download

You make it sound like the only reason why internet exist is because of illegal file sharing ?
Internet can be used to other things aswell.

Luckily I do not live in usa, so I do not pay for what I download, we have no traffic limit etc.
In Sweden we have actually very reasonable price for internet access, to call them greedy or capitalists in not right.

I pay like 40 dollars each month for 100 mbit internet connection, it is worth every penny.... Next Year I got 1000 Mbit :)

745
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:27:33 PM »

In our case, we all know we're "breaking" the law by illigally downloading music, but when someone ends up buying it shortly thereafter, how is any damage done?

Well, yes it is ok to question laws and even work to change them. Every democratic society is based on this. You work to change the law and voice your opinion, not break it because you disagree. It not like you are homeless and stealing food for your very survival...you are stealing music because you think it is somehow intrinsically owed to you. The reason it is wrong is that now you are keeping something which you have sold the rights too. If you want it cheaper...you go buy it used and save some money. But the fact that you paid $15 new and could only sell it used for $5 is unfortunately irrelevant. Again you are simply justifying your actions to fit your own paradigm and thus telling me you are entitled to keep the music, even though you are selling the hard copy CD. If you just wanted it digitally in the 1st place...buy the download.

This just keeps coming down to: I want to own what I want, I deserve it and it should fit my personal model economy.

PV

There is no democracy without revolutions :)
That is the exact reason why social disobedience is what I suggest. That is also the reason why 91% of the people think file sharing is an human right.
You can talk all you want about laws etc etc, in the end it is really up to the people to decide what they think is right.

"This just keeps coming down to: I want to own what I want, I deserve it and it should fit my personal model economy."

This one I totally agree with.

746
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 04:26:58 PM »
I think if you start as an artist, you could not expect anything in turn, you ask how the artist is going to survive on music, I think maybe you have wrong expectations, to survive on music is only a dream, and a reality for a very few.  To be a musician is not a work, it is not a way to make money as I see it. If you need to pay the bills and get food on the table and still want to be and free/independent music you should take some part time job, maybe a few days each month. Or come up with some other idea.
If you accept to live in an lower living standard you really do not need an full time job, a full time job would of course be an total disaster for every creative musician, freedom I think is an important element for every music, as I have said before, it is an lifestyle.



The problem is that the quality of the music we are listening today is a product of this "capitalist" system, or the commercialization of music, in other words, and will be deeply affected if the current system collapses, and professional musicians stop to exist. It's not so much about the artistic impulse, I'll actually agree on you on that most musicians do not create their art under the basic premise that they want to make a living out of it (which is still a great factor, let's not forget). There are also many things that come between the process of creating the art and you, listening to it at home. Professional studios for example, will vanish; why should someone pay a huge amount of money at a professional studio when it's impossible to get the money back? Or why should someone continue to massively produce expensive hardware processors and consoles if everyone's working with free, low quality vsts? Or actual instruments? Or pretty much everything that is a part of the music industry? Everything will dwindle or even vanish, and without professional musicians, the quality of the music will never be the same. We'll have instead of one Steve Roach, a million of Steve Roach wanabee composers writing mediocre music in their bedrooms with mediocre means in their free time, and exchanging mp3 files via myspace or something. Think about it.

I can agree with you that the capitalism is the product of what we have become, the whole technological development etc, is a product of the capitalism, however thanks to the digital world and software the rules have totally changed, you no longer need hardware in your studio, in future everything will be software and will surpass hardware.... Also with time, there will be so much free open source vsts and audio tools that no one needs to pay anything anymore.  I do not understand the logic why because of no money is involved the product quality would be low ?....there is no evidence for that.  your logic must be based on an short-term perception... In the future the whole humanity will work together in open source projects on an non-commercial basis, this has been proven that this is the most creative and best way to create software....prove me wrong... I think is the right path to go. I think you must think in long term into the future...see beyond the problems in this time...

Professional studios will vanish for sure for many reasons.. but they will always exist, there will always be a need for bands to record in studio.
However, I think in future the majority of artists will record at home with software, then send it do  mixing and mastering studios.





747
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 03:57:12 PM »
Immersion, I think I'll write a few words in response to your posts, mainly because I think the gap (generational, ideological, etc) between the rest of the people that post here and yours is so huge, that is seems impossible for a conversation to happen at this point. You're mistaken in some things you try to present as facts: it's very rare that musicians get such a low percentage of the sales, which is actually the policy of corporate labels and not small/medium size independent labels such as Hypnos. These kind of labels treat the artist in a much fairer way, because they want to give incentive to the artist to sign with them. Besides that, the size of the independent scenes is so small, that BOTH artists and labels can hardly make a living, the earnings are pocket money comparing to a "real" job, and very often these people spend equal and perhaps even more hours per day to this than they would (and they do, of course) at a regular job (do you think that an ambient 1000 copies cd release gets sold right away? It might take even years, if ever). So, I think you should perhaps re-think the concept of "charity" that you seem to look into with contempt: spending 10-15 euros or dollars to buy a recording of an artist (or even label) you are very fond of not only achieves you a personal connection to them, but it ensures that they'll be motivated to continue to produce excellent art in the future, as so many times we have said in this thread. Of course you can't buy everyone's album, but at least try to support these that are truly "important". Which should perhaps also include the labels that made their music known to you, and spent a lot of money (which might not get back) manufacturing the product and promoting it. And all of this hardly has to do anything with illegal downloading.

I am not saying that ALL labels gives 7-12% of the profit, what I say is that it is the norm, I aware the smaller labels often gives a better deal for the artists, but they still take the majority of the money in most cases. This is why I am fighting to get rid of the labels and the middle hand, and build a new better working distribution for future generations of artists. That is why I am saying we need no labels in the future, we need no labels in the future that will steal the money from the artists. The artist deserve the big majority of the money, the labels are the real thieves in my opinion. I would feel way more motivated to buy music If I did know the money did get the the artist, If I buy from Steve Roach and Robert Rich I can feel kind of confident that the money goes directly to the artist.  This is why I recommend every artist on this planet, to create their own label... and sell them to some kind of online distribution, to create your own label and print your own cds is not such big deal anymore, everyone can start an own label... I know I would definitely do that, I would refuse to let myself to get used by some money horny labels who want to steal my money.

Regarding the whole charity thing.... I am not sure that I agree..That I spend time listen the music should be enough... .and as I have said...if the artist has their own label..I am more motivated...But I do not think that money is the ultimate way to show your appreciation, a long "fan mail" I think would make every artist more happy and satisfied then 15 dollars, of course this is highly relative depending on the individual, but personally I would feel this way.

748
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 03:45:54 PM »
I think there are lots of aspects and sides to the discussion and I have to admit I'd not thought about second hand CDs in that way....so lots to learn from.

I think my issue with the 'everything for free' comes from the perception that only by taking from others can everything be free and only in a wealthy and 'civilised' society are things organised in ways that make it possible to act on. Immersion said himself that if everyone in his country chose not to work it would collapse (I think thats what you meant).

Take it right back to basics - you find yourself on a desert island - how you going to survive? You've got to put your arse into it cos nothing is going to come for free. Even in modern society, someones effort has gone into making everything that might be taken for free - even the torrent websites need someones effort to exist.

There is an anarchist philosophy of (cant remember the exact quote) each from their means and according to their needs - but this was always based on co-creation. Some people grow food, others eat that food so they can make the clothes the farmers wear while working type of thing. The idea never envisaged swathes of society just sitting around and eating food made by others, wearing clothes made by others because they can. Accepted response of general population to such people was not pleasant....

I suppose, across generations, we may be talking about different ideas of respect, freedom, utopia - and I have had a long history of this type of discussion, including direct action/court cases and prison sentences based on those beliefs and even now they inform my work in that I put a lot of energy to help disadvantaged people left behind by the capitalist society.

I know I could not survive on my own and I would prefer not to take from people unless they are giving something away out of respect for them.



I think if you start as an artist, you could not expect anything in turn, you ask how the artist is going to survive on music, I think maybe you have wrong expectations, to survive on music is only a dream, and a reality for a very few.  To be a musician is not a work, it is not a way to make money as I see it. If you need to pay the bills and get food on the table and still want to be and free/independent music you should take some part time job, maybe a few days each month. Or come up with some other idea.
If you accept to live in an lower living standard you really do not need an full time job, a full time job would of course be an total disaster for every creative musician, freedom I think is an important element for every musician, as I have said before, it is an lifestyle.

749
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 03:32:57 PM »
Unfortunately, it is true however. According to the law, the minute you sell a cd, you no longer have the rights to own said CD and it is actually illegal to burn it to your library and sell it. Again, it does not matter what you think or feel is right, the law is the law.

PV

No, what we feel and think is important. The law isn't some god-given commandment that people should accept a priori, it is a social contract made in order to hold society together. But, law is always imperfect, because society progresses and changes every minute. I believe we should debate rather than blindly accept everything that is imposed towards us, because either these things that the law is supposed to protect by supressing certain actions now might be invalid (hypothesis) or need to be reconfigured to fit recent developments. In our case, we all know we're "breaking" the law by illigally downloading music, but when someone ends up buying it shortly thereafter, how is any damage done? Why should we conform to the status quo when essentially our actions do not harm anyone, and instead offer us roads towards self-expansion? Would it REALLY cause any problem to anyone if we download an album that is our of print and can't be found anywhere else, rip a cd that we have bought from the artist (and then sold for an equal price), or download an album that we have already ordered from the artist as a preview (I think that was the case with Immersion, if I'm not mistaken?) I'd like an honest response concerning this...  

I agree with you there, regarding this I think social disobedience is in place...
This is actually what is happening right now, the law is not in phase with the general opinion of the people.
The alternative is to shut down internet, or let the state to supervise every step we make in our digital life.

This poll was recently asked in one of the biggest newspapers in Sweden
The question is if non-comercial file sharing should be legal. 90% is usually representative number
on all similar polls that I have seen.



In Sweden, the Swedish Piracy Party is soon becoming the third biggest party in Sweden, each day they get about 500 new members, so I would say
that within 14 days They will be bigger then "C".




750
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 03:19:38 PM »
Is listening to some music that you're not going to end purchasing because you didn't find it good enough that much of a crime? It could be considered as a "spiritual crime" perhaps, but if some guy meets Steve Roach tommorow and tells to the man "Hey, I've downloaded most of your music and I was deeply affected by it, it changed the way I see music" do you think he'll be mad at him? I don't know, I can't speak for the man.

I can't really speak for Steve, but I feel pretty certain he would be shocked to have someone tell him this.  If someone told me they were "deeply affected" by my work, but they had never bothered to purchase a single CD, I'd think here's a pretty selfish person who not only doesn't purchase most of their music, but doesn't even support the work that really means something to them.

I honestly CAN see how people can rationalize pirating the newest Britney Spears album or whatever... she's already a millionaire, how much of a difference will it make if I buy one copy, the major labels are giant evil corporations anyway, etc. 

I can even see how people can take a "try before you buy" attitude, downloading a lot of material and buying legit copies of the stuff they like most.

But the idea that people can rationalize pirating the music of an indie artist or label that's bringing in so little money as to barely break even, one of their favorite artists or labels... how does that rationalization go, exactly?  The $12 is more important to me than it is to him, besides they didn't actually SEE me download it so there's no proof, anyway the record industry is so corrupt you have to fight against ALL commercial releases, or what?

I know you were just offering an example, but I'd say you probably shouldn't walk up to Steve Roach or anyone else and say "Your work deeply affected me but not enough that I was willing to sacrifice anything at all in order to obtain it."

Of course as you are an label owner I can understand that you try to affect the opinion in your own interest, but I really do not think that Steve would react that way at all, I think he would feel the same just if you bought the album. Maybe he would say that he would recommend the CDs cause of the better sound quality, which in fact is true. Even the best Mp3 format Lame 3.97 and Lame 3.98 does not sound 100% transparent in studio headphones/good ears, the difference is of course very subtle, but ambient music is an analytical experience, where you focus on the details and on the forms of sound... so 100% transparency is important for me if I listen to ambient music.

I do not think Steve is an money grabbing capitalist in costume and briefcase. And why he is able to live on his music also has to do with his non-capitalistic lifestyle, from what I know he live in the desert a quite minimalistic lifestyle, he spend most of the time in his studio... I do not think he have 3 sports cars etc...

I think if you are going to be a musician in this capitalistic world, you must be prepared to live a very minimalistic and sparse lifestyle, you need to sacrifice a lot...do not expect to be rich on creating music..in best case you might receive some pocket money to buy food etc.

I have been living in existence minimum for the past 4 years and I am not really complaining, and you really do not need much to surrive, to pay the bills, yet I have a quite "normal" living standard, but this is mainly because I live in one of the best welfare countries in the world, if I did live in USA I would probably live on the streets now under a bridge.
I can buy the food I need, however I need to prioritize , I can't buy shit I do not need, like expensive clothes and sports cars etc, but to be honest, as the non-capitalist I am I really do not need all that shit, I think all this materialistic welfare is not what bring us true happiness and satisfaction.

However if I would want to live an higher living standard, I would still never take a full time job, at least not in the long term, I know most people do work fulltime until they are about 65 years old,  I think I would rather cut my throat then take a full time job for like rest of my life. However to get the money I need to pay for the basic needs like rent and food you do only need to work maybe a couple of days each month. The rest time of the month you could spend on music, this is basically my plan for the future as an musician, I would as little involement with the soiciety as possible so that I could focus on the music, and I am not going to enslave myself in fulltime job just to buy "social status" things that I do not really need...

I think how you rationalize pirating music is really up the person to decide, if it is worth to pay for the music at all.  All this morale philosophy dilemmas of not paying to music is obviously not an universal rule, we all have our own morale and norms to follow from our own perspective.

Personally I follow the the "try before buy" rationale, since I buy all 5 star cds because of the sound quality, at least I try to do so. But I think there is about 240, 5 star cds that I can't live with out, but then there is about 3000 more that I find important and very good, but that I can't spend the money on. So to find what I like I really need to download and go through many thousands of album to find what I seek...this is what I spend most of my awake time to, to discover new music...I would not spend more money if I did not file share, maybe I would spend less even, since most of the favorite underground music I listen to I would NEVER have discovered if it wasn't for file sharing.

However I would prefer and digital FLAC download with HIGH QUALITY artwork and 24 Bit soundquality (which is the standard sound resolution in studios nowdays).
But If I am going to buy Flac albums the prices should be lower, considering the labels take about 93% of the money, 7% of an orginal album is an reasonable price, so we are talking about $1.20 for one album in 24 BIT FLAC. Of course you would have the right to stream the album before you buy it, you should know what you buy, and not just trust sensational label advertisement who does always describe albums as the most sensational music ever, this is only words, I need to listen before I believe it.

751
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 02:46:23 PM »
I don't disagree with the suggestion there's a sort of glut of ambient music in recent years.  I really can't keep up with everything coming out recently, so I mostly  try to keep track of the work of artists in the following order:

I find there is no problem to keep track of the ambient scene, cause it is very small, not many releases if you compare to other genres I listen to.
Metal is a big problem, maybe 300 albums per month to go through one by one...on one year it becomes a lot of music.

However, this is once again where file sharing and internet is important, I would never be able to to get through all this vast amount to music which I discover each year if it wasn't for ftp servers and file sharing.  If we should follow your model, I would be able to buy maybe max 10 albums per month,  which I did before internet....

Personally I buy all "5 star" albums almost that I find to me important for me personally, these albums is what is my identity and my personality on both and mental and spiritual level.  The main reason why I buy an cds at all is  because of the CD QUALITY. MP3 quality is NOT enough, ESPECIALLY not for ambient music.  I do not by cds because of charity, as consumer the only thing you really care about is what you will get for your money, I know each time I buy a cd I will get rip off, the label will take most of the money, the artist will get very little. I have no real interest to support labels, as I have said that many times already which many people still try to ignore I have no interest to support these capitalists, and I can't really understand why most people seem to think it is OK that the artist only get 7% of the money, that is NOTHING.



752
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 02:33:34 PM »
Here it is: The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

http://tiny.pl/zc8v

Obviously, personal limits come into play, too.  Do I really "need" 2500 sci-fi paperbacks?  Why, yes, yes I do.   ;D

What a total crap philosophy, when it comes to music the more the better.  Thanks to file sharing my music taste is more precise and personal then ever,  cause the immense music to choose from. What you are actually saying here is that we should slow down the musical development?

But of course if we speak about music and development there comes to a point where music might become uncreative and mass produced.  However this will happen sooner or later, think in 200 years, will "creative" music exist then ? or will all ideas have been tried ?
I think the human expression in music is limited to a certain degree. I think in the future, I am not sure the main driving force as it is now is to create "new" music that has never been done before, I think it will more be a more personal non-compromising human expression, where we do not give a fuck about being "creative" or creating something "new", where we only care about the pure expression and flow of the music, which I think is the right attitude when creating music.




753
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 02:23:32 PM »
I also resent the woah is me attitude of, if I did not "steal" software for free, I would not be able to create music. Boo Hoo, if it is that important to you, get a second job for 6 months and save up to buy the software. If someone wants to play guitar is it ok to steal one as it is their fundamental right to be a musician? You are right, this is 100% generational. A generation who has grown up never being told no, or that there are rules or boundaries or ethics other than your own. In know this is a generalization, but sadly not far from the truth.

...and Bill please start a new topic as I am very interested in your discussion.

PV


Yet another capitalist, who think money is the solution to all the problems in the world.
For me it is obvious, that we do not have the money to buy what we want, is an political problem.
Since I have no money to buy anything that I want, and considering I only live ONE time, I will really do not give a fuck.
Since I have no money to give these capitalists They will not lose any money on me.

I think it is right of him to download music software, I do the same.  And since he create and release music he does still contribute to the society even though not in dollar bills.  Maybe if the world did allow us to have more money we would actually be able to buy what we want ?
The whole capitalistic and monetary system is not made to make us rich, it is only made to enslave nations...




754
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 24, 2009, 02:15:15 PM »

I thought I'd respond to this one, because I'm ostensibly almost part of your generation (I'm 32) and because I find this kind of talk of alternate ethics and cultural/technical appropriation sneakily narcissistic and worth bringing up.  I'm not going to harp on the ethics issues because this part of the argument is clear: if you don't conform to common laws, even if you're right (and I don't believe you are), you are still "jumping somebody else's train" so to speak.  You shouldn't steal what doesn't belong to you, and the end does not justify the means.  The art you are creating and the enjoyment you are having are based on somebody's labor—labor they expected to get paid to do, to feed families and pay taxes and drive compact cars to work to support their art.

I think the more interesting thing to discuss is a not-so-subtle implication of entitlement (which is absolutely generational), and also the argument that these things should be made free (software, the world's music supply, etc.) so that you can create art with total freedom and artistic abandon, and thereby advance art and human culture through your own efforts.  Am I misreading what you're typing there?

Ignoring the fact that protecting intellectual property (and I'm not talking RIAA here) has undoubtedly benefited more artists over the years than it has suppressed (first example that springs to mind is the terrible case of the creators of Superman), there is the plain fact that all artists prior to today's generation managed to somehow create great art, music, films, and culture without every part of culture at their disposal (and ignoring that limitations might create better art than a lack of limitations would).  Perhaps we are moving more toward an art culture of synthesis, where you take preexisting things and make new things from them ... somehow, I don't think so.  Guys who sample old records are still making rap and techno, etc.  Not exactly great leaps forward in terms of advancing art now that both have been around for 20+ years.

What baffles me a bit is the implication that this New Art to be created is so Necessary and so Important, in this age of cultural overproduction (let's admit it—do we really "need" as much ambient music as we already have?), that it is somehow okay to overthrow the current structure where people are able to earn money for their artistic pursuits—which may not work, since the advent of the internet, but which is able to change to work better over time, if run properly—to have that imaginary art to come that will change the earth?  And you need 8000 LPs and 15000 books to do it, and you need them for free?  Surely, with talent and effort, 8 LPs and 12 books would be enough ... how much did Picasso have?  And how much of those 8000 and 15000 can you truly digest and use, given that you, like most of us, are probably not a genius?

Really, it just sounds, to me, (and I don't know you guys at all, of course), that you only want to do what you want to do, you want instant gratification, and you don't want to have to take the necessary steps (paying for music and software and media) to do so.  I think this magical future art is just an excuse—I'm still waiting to see it.

You sound like a true capitalist, music = money and money = music right ??? :D
Instead of focus so much of the money, maybe it is better to focus and put the energy and time to create good music ???
You all capitalists on this forum all agree how wonderful the capitalistic system and the free market is, yet you have no concrete solutions to the problem ? :)
you really think you can force people to buy for music again, when they have got it all for free for that last 10-13 years ? hehe in your dreams, file sharing is here to stay, and there is no turning back.

Cheers :)

*snore*

755
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 22, 2009, 01:29:35 AM »


I believe art, thought, and intellectual property in general is something which is too much important to be treated like a simple commodity. Obtaining the essence of a work (the actual music of a cd, the text of an e-book) does not constitute theft according to my ethics, and that comes from someone that is a musician and a label owner at the same time (I have financed about 7 releases in total, some mine, some of other people). While all the arguments made in favour of the intellectual property holders are no doubt correct - one should not produce something without receiving back something, again) I believe the cultural benefits attainted by the "liberation" of art and information are way more important. I've been a part of the generation that grew up with music piracy (I'm 25 years old) and I just own a 10% percent of all the music I have ever listened; being totally honest with myself, I have to say that I could never have enough money in my life to attain the same amount of musical knowledge. And I own about 800 cds, Lps, and cassettes altogether... I have also produced a great part of my music with the help of pirated music software (I know talking about these things in a public forum is a taboo, but I feel it's very important for this conversation). I would never have made the music I've made or have the knowledge I have without internet and file sharing. And exactly the same happens with most people in my generation, who I noticed have became people with quite high knowledge, character and artistic thought because of this situation.


Well written, I agree with you there.... We share the same philosophy of cultural liberation...and in general..we live in the same world....

756
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 22, 2009, 12:05:12 AM »

...now on to Mr. Immersion (I am proud you held your tongue John, but I cannot) you come off as self righteous and authoritarian in so many of your posts, and yet to many of us you have no clue.

I think the same about you.

You clearly want the world your way. According to you: Musicians do not deserve to get paid, we should all use cheap low end gear as that is all that today's music requires, anyone who uses a Mac is a rich, elitist idiot, we should never use compression to master and you want the secrets of creating depth of field floating...which for me raps up your clueless and arrogant package in a neat little bow. Did I miss anything?

And you clearly want the world your way ????

You love to praise Steve Roach and how his music is the best there is and then you proceed to steal from him as you are not patient for the mail to arrive? (I am only borrowing this car for tonight officer, I have one on the way tomorrow). The ridiculous part is, why don't you e-mail Steve, tell him how much you love his music and then demand he give all of it to you for free as he does not deserve to make a living at it or recoup the cost of his studio gear, as you feel he should probably just use cheap software anyway...how dare he have a real synth and hi-end gear...oh wait aren't you saving up for an Eventide H-8000FW so you can have your floaty black hole reverb?

Sorry man, your arguments do not hold water or value. You just want what you feel you deserve. You need to think of an economic model in your new world order which offers, food, gear and housing to artists and musicians. Most artists and musicians I know do a better job with better tools and more importantly the free time to create it and living on ramin noodles and working a crappy 50 hr a week job may be great for a few years, no artist will sustain them selves forever in that model...but it sounds truly like you do not care.

You and your generation are not Robin Hood stealing food and money from the rich overlords to give to the poor, you are stealing works that someone else put money, blood, sweat, emotion and time into and that is something my friend that you and the world do not deserve as a right! If an artists choose to give away their craft, it is their right to do so, not the other way around.

...Mike and moderators, if this is out of line and too personal, feel free to delete it. I have vented and I will retreat again into the shadows...

Paul



Ah damn, *snore*... you did sink to a quite low level now... obviously you did take everything personally, to be honest I think it is quite silly and naive of you.
You only make yourself look foolish.

Obviously some one is not allowed to have different opionions then yourself.

Read my replies above if you want know more....

As I said earlier, there is no easy solutions on the problem, and cd sells which you think is the solution is not the solution, besides for a very very few group of artist like Steve Roach. However what I care about is not only popular artists, I care about the small independent artists as well.  As I have said earlier, we need a totally different political climate in future, this is what I strive for and what my discussion is based upon.  I am not the reactionary, I see past the now and towards the future, that is what we all must do if things are going to change and if we ever are going to live in a better world.




757
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 21, 2009, 11:46:55 PM »
Immersions comment that listeners/consumers have rights but artists do not is the basic assumption that throws everything out. Despite the possibility of language misunderstandings and the difference between 'younger' and 'older' generations I add my twopenny worth.

No One has any rights, rights are just agreements between 'civilised' people and when societies are basic and violent the concept does not exist. A right has no physical reality, Christ! it's only a few years ago that we would have all been sweeping chimneys or down mines at 7 years old - no time for rights then (I only mention this as evidence of statement, not wishing we were 'back' then or anything).....and within Immersions arguments anything that has no physical reality can be ignored. The 'right' to have music for free can be taken away as easily as the 'right' to life - just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Music may not hold any value because the internet, big companies or listeners devalue it, but just because the flow of information makes it so easy does not make it right. If someone managed to organise the flow of our belongings out of our homes that would not make that right either.

my disagreement is simple. I don't think things (music or otherwise) should be taken for free - if someone chooses to give something for free that is different...

I advocate copyright, in the sense that if a person have done something he or she should be associated with the work and no on else, I see this is an fundamental right and important. This protection is important since it gives you the right to own the rights to your work. However these rules are not universal, within certain cultures hip hop and electronic music sampling and copying from others is wildly acceptable.  No other person should be able to make "profit"  on your work and print cds this is rights I agree with.

However when we speak about file sharing we are not talking about profit, we are talking "potential" financial loss.... There is no guarantee even though you downloaded something that you will actually buy it. If the artist could decide I think he still would prefer as many people would listen to the music, if they would not buy the music anyway.



758
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 21, 2009, 11:27:56 PM »
Sorry to say that, but Immersion is full of shit. His whole arguing is so incredibly naive and stupid
that it almost hurts. But in the end its bullshit to even argue with him. I stopped arguing on the
internet, since the last time it was a monkey who was in front of the other pc.

Just one last question. Did Immersion ever released his own Cd? If not, then he is certainly
disqualified to discuss this thing here. Plain and simple.

Well I think the same about you...but this is human nature..and conflicting opinions is only natural...I will waste no time and energy to convince you about anything...

759
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 21, 2009, 11:25:35 PM »
Immersion - It sounds like you believe that Mr Roach should have a day job too
and make music in his spare time - and that, therefore, works like "Mystic Chords"
should not exist.

I do not think so no. I am aware that too have a day job, and live an artistic life does not always work.
To be musician is a lifestyle... However, as I said, unless you have talent like Roach and do not own your own label, these is no
way you can survive on cd sells, that is the reality. Some pocket money from cd sells will not help. If you have your own label and release many cds
and you sell a lot, you might be able to survive...However, this will only work for a very few privileged artists... the common independent artist can never survive on cd sells... unless we close down internet of course, but then we still have the problem that the labels get the most part of the money....

As I said, earlier I think the state and politics is the solution....in my country the state takes responsibility...

760
Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 21, 2009, 11:16:52 PM »
How much your work is worth is up to the consumer to decide, so it is very relative, . It is not up to an label to decide a "price". 

This is incredibly naive.  The music is made by the artist, but the consumer is the only one who has control of it?

I agree that the consumer has the right to decide to buy or not buy music at a given price.  The idea that the person who made the music has no say in the matter is ridiculous.  It's just something you tell yourself so you'll feel better ignoring the rights of creative people whom you claim to respect.

Do you seriously believe that listeners will voluntarily send "donations" for music they've obtained illicitly?  This happens very, very rarely.  I know that Hypnos has never once received one of these "I downloaded your album via bittorrent and enjoyed it so much I wanted to send along the $6 I feel the recording is worth" donations.

I do believe that sometimes, a person downloads an album and really likes it enough to purchase the CD legitimately.  But far, far more often, human nature takes over and they think, "well, I already have the recording, so why should I go pay for it?"

Alright, I will try to respond to all attacks one by one. I have had insomnia the past two days...so have had no energy or will to respond...

Considering all personal attacks etc it is quite clear the middle age is quite high on this forum, somewhat to my surprise...I have never been called a "Thief" of a person in my own generation, so we are without doubt getting towards and generation shift.

And as I said, a very few people make money on their music especially in these times, however, it is now cheaper then ever to create your own music, since the digital studio almost everyone can afford and home studio. People like me can't afford nothing, no cds at all almost, and no software. So in my case I would not be able to record any music at all if it wasn't for piracy.

And when we are talking about pirate copies and financial losses, it is very important to clearly we are talking about an POTENTIAL loss, first of all, do you have the money to buy it in the first place ?  and is it even worth spending money on ?

We shall compare the good and bad sides and find the balance... What I am interested is the common good, and find the right balance...
The only thing that is talking against that the music and the whole information society would flow free, is the economic aspect.
To build such society we need to get out of this capitalistic market economy system.

I have tried to explain to you that to live and survive on making independent music is very hard and for 99,9% only a dream.  Steve Roach is one of the very few people who create ambient music who sell so many cds albums and can survive on his music.

And if you are going to survive on your music you must have your own label like Steve Roach. You should know when you buy a CD, most of the money goes to the label, this "industry" and middle hand is something we can live without in the future, instead this small fraction of the profit should go directly to the artist in some way or another. I have not interest to support labels in the future, we need to get rid of this middle hand, since the money gets in the wrong pocket, the artist is the one who should get the most part of the profit. The norm that the artist earn on one cd is about 7-10% the rest the label takes. Most artist do never sell more then 1000 copies, can you explain to me, how an artist should survive on this income ? I do not get the equation to work... So even though you all talk so much about buying cds legally, it is still not a solution to the problem. Only the state and politics have the power to come with any kind of solution that would help musicians to survive on music.

In Sweden where I live, there is no problem to be a musician full time, since I live in an social democratic country, this basically does mean, you do not need to work if you do not want, at least if this group is a minority otherwise the whole system would of course collapse, We have about 15% unemployment in Sweden, but that is already changing ,since the young generation do not want to work at all, they all want to live in freedom.

And this argument and logic that and artist must make money on the music is just bullshit, if that was the case no independent music would exist.

Yes I am a dreamer, I guess I live ahead of my time, my philosophy is based on an utopia. The whole economy aspect is a quite complex and long discussion in itself, to survive on creating music in this capitalistic market economy will not be easy in the future that is for sure. But politicians could make it easier for musicians if they wanted, in Sweden where I live we did have an musician grant before in the 70s during the hippie era, the whole political climate is radically more different now... in theory it could work, but in an cynical capitalistic society it does not work since people of course would abuse it.

I would rather see something like PROUT http://www.prout.net/ in the future, http://www.thevenusproject.com/ have a lot of interesting ideas as well










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