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Messages - Ekstasis

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741
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Broken Harbour learns to use Logic 9
« on: November 21, 2013, 07:08:08 PM »
have you tried youtube... ?
a lot of guides of the basics there.

742
it would be crazy if this was not released on dvd...

743
You can download it here

http://atwatersedge.fm/steve-roach-live-this-week/



Also some pics from the concert

http://thevortexdome.com/steveroach-audriphillips-gallery/

There is also a few live clips on youtube with lower quality from the concert.

744
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 04:11:05 PM »
It is because I am migrating from a digital to a more analogue studio  I know what the differences is,  I know what analogue sound is and its characteristics, I have also heard the difference myself with my own ears so I know what I am looking for.  Until then I use as much virtual analogue I can in my studio, they give a lot of the analogue characteristics I am seeking, it is just that pure analogue make it even better then what these plugins do.

It took me about 3 and half years to save up for what I have now.

745
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 03:12:33 PM »
I've got my sights set on the Modi USB Digital to Analog Audio Converter:

http://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital-Analog-Convertor/dp/B00CICPN0K

It's made by Schiit Audio, which has a good reputation from what I've heard, and the reviews on Amazon and elsewhere are unanimously positive, which isn't always common for audio equipment that cheap. And it's well within my grad student budget.

Even if it's not the best on the market, it should still be an improvement over what I've got now.

If you do not have a big budget, please try to buy something second hand, it is really the only way to get something substantial for a very low budget. Newer is not better. 

746
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 03:10:57 PM »
My 2 cents about that…

Agree with most APK said before! Also use Wizooverb W2 and it´s great

But it´s really a matter of what you want to archive…for me any reverb work for ambient (even a lot of freeware…still use Sanford a lot). For me it´s quite funny making a fuss about reverb and then to look for plugins sounding like tape-emulations or trying to archive an old sound (i.e with bit reduction) :-D

Is anyone really believe the audience will hear the difference which reverb is used and judging then the music by this then in another way? In my opinion this is just a marketing gag of the audio industry…otherwise, how it possible to have great albums in the 80´s just made with a D-50 (incl the internal effects)?

Lets say it this way…the audio industry in today simply needs this "higher and better" just for selling their products. And beside that, most people starting with music today are just confused by all the "the best" options.

Cheers,
Tomas

It seem you are not a big fan of tape sound, and it sounds also like you have got wrong idea of what good tape sound is. Great tape sound will not in any shape or form destroy the audio it will just make it sound all better when it it is done right, it might just give the reverb the the final saturation which many reverbs lack,  Lexicon has beautiful satuartion and colour.   The highest quality converters such as  Crane song HEDD like Mike was talking about or BURL have both try to make the best from high quality tape sound.   It seem you worship the sound of cold sterile and "clean" digital sound.
problem is it is dead boring to listen to.. no interesting complex details and harmonics which you get from analogue sound by nature.
Especially synths in ambient need all saturating that you can get to make them sound good in my opinion,  tape saturating make everything sounds right in many cases and make beautiful harmonics so lets not talk down about tape sound, many of the absolute top producers use tape sound to summarize mixes, tape sounds does not need to be bad sounding "old scool" sound, it can also be super clean with just beautiful saturation and harmonics, this is the reason people adore the BURL transformers which is considered to be the best converters right now those transformers add "tape like" qualities.

will the audience here the difference which reverb is used ? if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would say no.  But since that time I have tried many different reverbs, and all reverbs have a different character same goes with synths,  I have some days ago received my Eventide H8000fw, looking forward to hear the reverb, but it is the pitch shifting reverbs with eventide that is very hard to not hear... if you have heard it.
I

I find quite often I hear what reverbs that is used,
But of course often it is really hard to tell.. some times more obvious...steve roach sound is unmistakably lexicon, I know he use eventide H3000 on some (darkest before dawn). But almost all of the time I am just surprised how bad reverbs people use, a lot of people use probably the internal effects of the soft synths which is always useless.  I have not heard one synth with good internal effects, omnisphere included.  Of course everyone decide what bar of sound quality they want.  but there is so many factors invovled if you have speakers that colour the sound that most people probably have a bad sounding reverb might sound beautiful,  all I can say is with my new Trident HG3 speakers I find it way easier to hear clear difference between good and bad reverbs.  The biggest problem with most reverbs is that they do not represent the full frequceny spectrum, they are capped ofteh the thigh end gets lost in the mud,  I am allergic to muddy reverb , and unfortunately this artifact is very common in the ambient scene today.

Before talking too much about "better" "best" etc…what about making an example on your site so anyone can hear the differences you are talking about? By seeing and haring all the gear you have I´m now really curious, so please give us the chance to understand the difference! So, can you please provide some examples/clips? Only that would be really helpful to understand what you are talking about!

Cheers,
Tomas

My studio is incomplete my signal chain is not complete,  also I am going to sell my Lynx converter and buy a BURL converter instead, I am still need a pre amp, to plugin my guitars, synths and microphones,  I use mostly software right now.. the things I use in my studio so far is only my HG3 speakers and dangerous audio source monitor controller. Most people would probably just buy something cheap But I prefer to buy the good stuff direcely life is too short to waste time with gear you do not like I am tired of it.  I hope in a few months I will be able to show you some examples of my gear if you want.

I am 90% sure I will bu the Phoneix audio DRS-8 mkII pre amp,  with that I can also use the drive function to overdrive the signal to make it saturate beautifully and bring life to sounds/instruments,   I will buy both the BURL B2 bomber DAC and the ADC converters, the ADC converter have a transformer that will IF YOU WANT give mesmerizing tape like quality.  I will maybe buy the BURL MIX bus too.. But it takes time to save up to money for all I want. Some of it I will buy on installment, and I can pay it back within 12 months, I will also sell my Lynx Aurora, it will generate kind of a lot money and pay for almost one B2 Bomber,  I will also sell it for more then what I paid for, cause I got for and totally incredible price second hand from Finland.  In the summer I will probably work 2 jobs again, so I can afford everything I want to buy.

747
I'm listening to this now (thanks to Jeff for sending me a copy). Long time list members know that I, unlike many, am a huge fan of fairly recent Greinke releases, such as Virga and Winter Light, which some found to be too "soft" and nothing at all like his past, more abstract albums, such as Places of Motility, Lost Terrain, etc. I loved the melancholic, soundscape, cinematic elements of both Virga and Winter Light, both which reminded me of Mychael Danna's work, such as skys as well as of Tim Story's The Perfect Flaw. Anyway, this new one has Jeff working with a LOT of acoustic instrument accompanists: French horn, percussion, drums, trumpet, clarinet, viola, violin, trombone, cello, guitar, bass, etc. Jeff plays "all other instrumentation, sounds and rhythms." Some of the music has a strong chamber music aesthetic to it, and may elicit a somber/melancholic mood, but not always. "Valley and Ridge" is propelled by a cheery series of bell tones, percussive effects, and sweet string melodies with what I would characterize as a subtle Asian undertone. Based on the (gorgeous) photos contained in the accompanying booklet, I think the title of the CD indicates what the CD is about...music meant to accompany the images as one rides the train...particularly across a rural landscape in what appears to be the farm belt of the US (but I'm just speculating here). "The Milky Way" features forlorn trumpet set against an undercurrent of a rhythmic repeating texture (meant, I guess, to simulate the sound of a train on the tracks) before its mid-section morphs into a more free-form jazz meets quasi-experimental neo-classical semi-dissonance, reemerging into a more structured repeat of the first half. OTOH, "Haboob" is closer to post-rock. Searing guitars, raucous rhythms on trap kit drums and other devices, a subdued sensation of restrained chaos permeates the cut. and And I am now writing a review, which I only intended on giving a snapshop so I'll just close by saying that this may be Jeff's most ambitious album to date...it cannot be easily summed up (I wish myself luck on writing this review), and needs to be slowly digested, especially with how diverse it is at times.

My caveat is if you are fond of his early more traditionally ambient/dark ambient work and don't enjoy his recent stuff or his more non-ambient work and also if you don't enjoy acoustic instruments carrying the bulk of the load, you should listen to sound clips first. Myself, while I am still getting used to this, I know I like it just because I can "hear Jeff Greinke in it" and that's enough for me.

sounds nice I am looking forward to hear.
I hope you did not miss "Cities in Fog 2" from 2011, it is quite back to his roots...

748
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 02:42:00 PM »
Wow, I didn't expect this many responses. I think I'm still leaning toward getting a DAC for my main laptop in the near future since the quality probably isn't that good from the laptop but I'll stay within my budget on that. Also, I did buy Toraverb but I haven't tried it out yet.

Really appreciate all the responses so far.  :)

well this thread is mostly off topic though :)

There was no demo of the Toraverb ?
unless you have a specific sound and do not want a big lush hall sound then I think you will like toraverb.
Personally even though I have access to the lexicon pcm native reverbs I still always use toraverb also in the effect chain cause it just give such beautiful saturation for ambient music. however I never use more then 9 o clock though.  I almost never use more wet signal on reverbs then that, cause I want to avoid the mudd, in some cases it can be better to use mulitple reverbs but use less wet on each..

good idea about buying a new DAC, if you can tell me your budget I might be able to help you...and do you live in usa ?

749
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 02:38:12 PM »
My 2 cents about that…

Agree with most APK said before! Also use Wizooverb W2 and it´s great

But it´s really a matter of what you want to archive…for me any reverb work for ambient (even a lot of freeware…still use Sanford a lot). For me it´s quite funny making a fuss about reverb and then to look for plugins sounding like tape-emulations or trying to archive an old sound (i.e with bit reduction) :-D

Is anyone really believe the audience will hear the difference which reverb is used and judging then the music by this then in another way? In my opinion this is just a marketing gag of the audio industry…otherwise, how it possible to have great albums in the 80´s just made with a D-50 (incl the internal effects)?

Lets say it this way…the audio industry in today simply needs this "higher and better" just for selling their products. And beside that, most people starting with music today are just confused by all the "the best" options.

Cheers,
Tomas

It seem you are not a big fan of tape sound, and it sounds also like you have got wrong idea of what good tape sound is. Great tape sound will not in any shape or form destroy the audio it will just make it sound all better when it it is done right, it might just give the reverb the the final saturation which many reverbs lack,  Lexicon has beautiful satuartion and colour.   The highest quality converters such as  Crane song HEDD like Mike was talking about or BURL have both try to make the best from high quality tape sound.   It seem you worship the sound of cold sterile and "clean" digital sound.
problem is it is dead boring to listen to.. no interesting complex details and harmonics which you get from analogue sound by nature.
Especially synths in ambient need all saturating that you can get to make them sound good in my opinion,  tape saturating make everything sounds right in many cases and make beautiful harmonics so lets not talk down about tape sound, many of the absolute top producers use tape sound to summarize mixes, tape sounds does not need to be bad sounding "old scool" sound, it can also be super clean with just beautiful saturation and harmonics, this is the reason people adore the BURL transformers which is considered to be the best converters right now those transformers add "tape like" qualities.

will the audience here the difference which reverb is used ? if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would say no.  But since that time I have tried many different reverbs, and all reverbs have a different character same goes with synths,  I have some days ago received my Eventide H8000fw, looking forward to hear the reverb, but it is the pitch shifting reverbs with eventide that is very hard to not hear... if you have heard it.
I

I find quite often I hear what reverbs that is used,
But of course often it is really hard to tell.. some times more obvious...steve roach sound is unmistakably lexicon, I know he use eventide H3000 on some (darkest before dawn). But almost all of the time I am just surprised how bad reverbs people use, a lot of people use probably the internal effects of the soft synths which is always useless.  I have not heard one synth with good internal effects, omnisphere included.  Of course everyone decide what bar of sound quality they want.  but there is so many factors invovled if you have speakers that colour the sound that most people probably have a bad sounding reverb might sound beautiful,  all I can say is with my new Trident HG3 speakers I find it way easier to hear clear difference between good and bad reverbs.  The biggest problem with most reverbs is that they do not represent the full frequceny spectrum, they are capped ofteh the thigh end gets lost in the mud,  I am allergic to muddy reverb , and unfortunately this artifact is very common in the ambient scene today.


750
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 07:02:18 AM »



As for other software plugins for processing audio......the one and only Sound Toys native bundle.  I recall Paul Vnuk saying on this forum that a good software reverb and the Sound Toys bundle of fx plugins you can come very close to the sound palette of an Eventide Eclipse.  As an Eclipse owner and Sound Toys user I would agree with this.   

http://www.soundtoys.com




Regarding soundtoys, they are mostly good for adding color and saturation, but they are not true the source at all.
in fact you can use very little wet signal if you want to keep the source qualities and transient, one big

Phase Mistress can be good but remember it will completly destroy the source and transform to something different...
From there bundle I like Decapitator the most...

I have not tried Radiator yet unfortunately...

I would really like the Little MicroShift plugin..I think it can be useful to use on left and right channel with slighly different pitch.
I know robert rich have talked about the technique. but to use it you really need a really high quality pitch shifter...

751
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 07:29:52 PM »
Hopefully some more people will jump in on this topic, with other recommendations too.

I will certainly look though my software tomorrow and see if I can suggest something in the reverb line. I think reverbs can be very personal, in the sense that they must, to your ears, fit your sound, and also operate in a way that makes intuitive sense.

It is not like there is an ocean of serious alterntives out there of software reverbs, for me it is important that they are transparent and true to the source and does represent the original audio and keep the audio details.  If you just want big lush dense walls with no audio details in them just a total "even" sound with no transients there is plenty of options.  A lot of people in ambient scene use "Aether" it is one of the worst reverbs I know. It sounds "big" but not detailed..

SSL X-verb is quite good too little bit more expensive but a lot cheaper then Lexicon PCM Native.
For ambient Ariesverb is still the most price worthy choice... it actually sound like a lexicon reverb for real..


752
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 07:26:11 PM »
I had never heard of Toraverb before but seeing you mention Robert Rich's endorsement and the fact that it's a bargain at that price, I might buy that really soon. It seems like it would also probably be different enough from the ValhallaRoom.

The other ones seem like they would be awesome too but they're noticeably more expensive.

Why Robert Rich like it is because I think there is no similar reverb. It has an unique sound and I guess it does does complement his sony and lexcion reverbs



753
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 06:12:04 PM »
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm definitely going to take these recommendations into consideration.

I'll admit that I've probably been guilty of too much reverb (some of it probably too cheap in quality) in the past. I did buy ValhallaRoom recently and that's definitely a huge improvement over almost every plugin I have. I was blown away TBH. I'm definitely going to be more conscious of reverb when I record in the future.

for ambient I tend to use mostly halls..but for string instruments I guess valhallaroom can be good, I have only tried the valhalla shimmer..
it sounded quite big and lush..but unfortunately a lot of the source audio will become muddy and you will lose a lot of details ..it is not a clean reverb..but works good for pads and stuff..

I recommend

http://www.d16.pl/index.php?menu=228

http://www.robpapen.com/buy-rp-verb.html

http://www.ariescode.com/index.php

The very sily saturation in RP verb is extremly beautiful... but it sounds more flat and less 3D then a expensive lexicon reverb..

Ariesverb the algoritms I think was supossed to be and hardware reverb box but it did never make it to the market...I do not remember the complete story, but after been using lexicon PCM native plugins for a long time I must say Aries verb comes most close.. it has a more Deep 3D sound...
good for very long reverb tails.. the GUI sucks..but for this style of music..you often have the same preset all the time on the mix.

Toraverb is a good secondary reverb.. Robert Rich have talked highly about it. You are not able to create big 3D Lexicons halls with it, but you can create very detailed reverbs with unique saturation and character sounds very clean with almost a little bit "metallic" sound just very subtle though..

754
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »


I remember being surprised when I first got started making ambient music that most of the other people I knew had very nice gear -- expensive mixers, high-end Lexicon reverbs, good monitors, and that sort of thing. Now lots of people just buy an audio interface for their computer and use the default effects built into their DAW software, and that's it -- they don't pay for any effects, either outboard, or higher-quality plugins.

well, I am a part of the  younger more "forward thinking" generation,  about 10 years ago when all software plugs did look to have a promising future and also computer performance was getting better and better I did kind of look down at the old things, I wanted to replace as much as possible with software plugins,  I felt smart, and I thought other where "stupid"  why pay so much money when you can just have a cheap plugin that sounds the same... I think most younger ambient artist is still stuck in this kind of "mentality" that software is the cutting edge in audio and that everything sounds best and can be down "in the box" with software.  No need for expensive mixers or expensive analog outboard gear now when you can use high quality plugins.

As I said I did grow up under this software "revolution"  about 10 years later I realize not much has happen in the last 10 years when it comes to creating music with software, the development has slown down extremely.. only more of the same..   analoge still sound superior even so many years,  you only get close with plugins in that use between 50-80% on the latest intel cpus overclocked you get close the analgoue "essence" of the sound. 

Yeah so personally I have changed radically, I am going away more and more from software "in the right places". I still use soft synths for instance, it is ok if your other signal chain is high quality, for instance analgoue outboard gear can make even a digital soft synth glow to life.
I am not anti software but I do not compromise in sound quality. I realize its strength and weaknesses.  The weaknesses is 100% due to the lack of CPU power, almost all plugins compromise in audio quality in favor of less cpu usage, all this are hearable... CPU needs a lot of power to crate those complex and precise harmonics that analogue gear make..it just kills the cpu... this is the reason I buy more and more external gear, to get more power cause the CPU can't do all processing on it's on... The lack processing power is one of the main reason why all ambient produced "in the box" sound so cheap..  however there is expectations of plugins that sound incredible with minimal cpu power, Lexicon PCM native is one of them, but I think one reason of that is because the algorithms have been refined for about 30 years the algorithms where made for a different time with a lot less processing power then what we have today...so with the right miracle could is probably possible but extremely hard craft to program such things.. most virtual analogue stuff consume the cpu totally...the plugins I use that I think sound good, such as digital slate, SPL, SSL, D16,  etc they all have one thing in common..the use a lot of cpu..

I will still use both software and hardware...

755
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:34:19 PM »
Also, I wasn't offended by Immersion's post at all, so it's no big deal.


That's good -- and I didn't think Immersion's comment was all that bad, but I hope we won't get started telling people their equipment choices are terrible. Also, if someone says they're thinking about upgrading from their entry-level audio interface, I don't know if $2500 devices are the best suggestion. That's so many steps above what you're using now, I think you'd be better served by a recommendation for something by Presonus or Focusrite or maybe M-Audio.

of course I do not want that have the discussion either it is not a competition, but he was saying he was not satisfied and that and the sound quality was not clean enough... I was just trying to explain possible factors...that is all..
A good reverb comes first I would say... To make it more clean sounding a good trick is to use tube saturation try wavearts tube saturator or something.. increase the treble a little bit you will feel the high end is opening up and becomes "cleaner" and takes away a lot of the "dust" in the reverb also..

756
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:31:14 PM »
I'm in grad school so I don't have a lot of money.  :(

I'm definitely looking for something that's not going to run me broke.

Also, I wasn't offended by Immersion's post at all, so it's no big deal.

you have to beleive you do not need a big budet to great high quality ambient. But a good sounding reverb is the most critical part in this genre, if you do not have a good reverb everything will sound bad.  If you are on a budget and want a expensive lexicon sound the best is to buy an second hand PCM unit or to use some of the software reverbs..there are a few that sound very good for the price.

757
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 05:28:46 PM »
I am just telling him the reality, he said the sound did not feel "clean" enough.
If you want clean and transparent sound it comes with a price. I wish there was a shortcut.

But there is goldcorns even with cheap gear if you are good at founding them so price does not automatically equal quality.
even if you have a smaller budget you can get quite high quality if you buy the right stuff...and do you research.

I was also interested to buy HEDD, but is a kind of old product..it is based from what I understand on software code there is plugin versions
of the saturation stuff... but all I can say I would love to try it.. I am a big fan of summing boxes like that..which can bring that extra magic and luster to the sound..

My days are over when I did try to do "clever" buys, to save money, but what I have learned is that it is better to buy good stuff first,
otherwise you will never get really satisfied you will always have that itching feeling of unsatisfactory... also it makes your "job" easier..to mirror
you artistic expression.

One other aspect I have really got to enjoy starting to buy really expensive gear is that these gear does actually have a very good second hand value and in many cases the prices on the second hand market can stay very stable for a long time even they can increase in price if it the product becomes rare.

If you buy budget stuff, they have simply zero second hand value you can get a fraction of that price that's it.
Of course every one decide what is best for them, personally I prefer to think more long term and that life is too short to invest
in cheap gear, I want to live my life in full satisfaction so I do not compromise, of course I understand not all people are as fixated some people
might prioritize to buy a new car or travel.

But I personally find it highly paradoxical that in the ambient genre which is supposed to be "advanced" sound design most people use
a lot cheaper gear then normal studios... cheap effect cheap everything, most ambient artist have it with some kind of side activity they use a laptop and some software plugs but not a real studio.  All I am saying is I find it paradoxical why the bar is not set a lot higher in the genre.. if ambient genre is supposed to be some kind of cutting edge when it come to advanced sound design.  In most other recent produced music the production is very important nowdays often very polished I do not feel that way when I hear most new ambient unfortunately I just hear cheap reverbs with no transients at all left in the sound just 100% reverb

759
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:47:08 PM »
well I would not expect much of the Lexicon Alpha, it is a very cheap interface with the price of like 5-6 pizzas.

I think when it comes to analog recording there is not much shortcuts.. every part of the signal chain is important. 

760
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 20, 2013, 04:37:04 PM »
Converters matters, in a typical studio setup you use atleast 2 converters, one for the input signals from your pre amp, and one for the output signal to the speakers.
Both are very critical, but if you do mostly stuff inside your computer I guess your monitor controller/converter is more important, cause this will represent the true audio which your computer send.

But it looks like you use kind of a lot of external instruments so yeah... a good converter would really make a big difference.
but a great pre amp is a ls also good, of course you set the bar yourself what you are ready to pay for the best sound quality.
Antelope audio Orion 32 is good converters too..same goes with Prism Titan/orpheus, you can get lynx aurora second hand for good price.

Burl do the best converters right now, I will buy them I am saving up money to buy them

http://www.burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-adc
http://www.burlaudio.com/products/b2-bomber-dac

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