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Messages - Ekstasis

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Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 19, 2009, 03:15:24 PM »
Immersion, it's not up to you to decide whether or not musicians should be allowed to charge for their music.  Some musicians are happy to give it away for free, and others want to charge something for it.  Some listeners are happy getting a bunch of mp3 files via bittorrent, while many others want to purchase a CD with printed artwork. 

Your choice of the Robert Rich live archive perfectly illustrates my point, not yours.  You'll notice Robert did not release the live recordings on CD, though he has released live recordings on CD in the past.  The reason his new live archive was released as download-only, rather than on CD, is because the music market has changed so much that Robert feels pressing CDs of these live recordings would not be worth the cost, given how many copies might sell.  Ten years ago, this would be an easy decision to make -- we sold plenty of copies of Humidity, for example, a collection of live Robert Rich recordings.  Now, Robert believed and I agreed with him, the live archive recordings would be hard to sell in sufficient numbers to justify putting them on CDs.  And this is one of the most popular and most established artists in our genre!  The effect of file sharing, and the "music must be free" mentality, has made it harder for artists to sell enough CDs to pay for the cost of pressing the discs, let alone any big profit.  So the Robert Rich live archive recordings are download-only, even though Robert would like to have them on CD and there are many listeners (though probably not enough) who would like to have them on CD too.

You keep saying people should "get a job" and that's ignorant of you, because most of us DO have jobs -- label owners and ambient musicians alike -- because there is not much money to be made from selling our music.  I understand that in your idealized utopian vision, all artists would gladly work hard to buy equipment and record music to be released for free, but the reality, not the dream, is that many artists will not participate in the vision you propose.  If artists must bear the cost of buying all their own equipment and instruments without any possibility of getting something in return, some of them won't bother, and all of us who would have been willing to buy their CD will have lost out on that artist's work.

The thing is, it's not up to YOU to decide whether or not an artist or label can charge for their work.  The work belongs to them, not you, and they get to decide.  If you assert that you can overrule their decision, that's just because you want something for free and you're inventing a rationalization after the fact to justify your own selfishness.

It is not totally true, according to Robert Rich himself,...

So why did I wait so long to release some of this music? Well, it’s because of the realities of digital download. Back when a “release” meant a CD, and several thousand dollars invested in manufacturing, marketing, packaging and such, I wanted to keep my releases limited to the latest work. But in retrospect, some of these more improvisational moments of the past have value on their own, as action instead of object, like dance relates to sculpture. The download format also allows for longer durations. Manufactured CDs shouldn’t exceed 74 minutes. Some of these sets were 80-90 minutes long. Even now I faced a challenge to edit them down to an 80 minute CDR-capable format, so people could back-up their lossless downloads.

The reality is the artist is no longer in power to decide to take charge for music or not since they do no longer have monopoly in distribution, consumers now have a choice, either to download it for free or buy the cd and maybe wait 1-2 weeks before you receive the cd, the choice is up to you.

Too survive on music is only a dream for most artists, you can't be a "rockstar" anymore..that time is over... only a very few of all artists have the opportunity to survive on their music, and those who do usually work hard...long tours etc... as I said, cd sales only generates pocket money for the independent artists, you can't surrive on that shit, unless you do live shows, and sell shirts etc.  And to produce and record music in your home studio is now something everyone can do. Personally I have plants to Norway in a few months to work like a dog for 10 weeks if I get the job..that is...when I come home I will be able to buy everything I want, finally the Eventide Processor a pair of studio monitors. Then I have all I need to create music and I am all happy, I have however no plans to survive on my "music" or get money for it... I create music for my own personal pleasure.

Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 19, 2009, 02:38:21 PM »
BTW it is needed to be said, I am trying to debate with two cd label owners right here, I do fully understand your intention and perspective.
You are talking in your own interests, which I can understand...

Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 19, 2009, 02:36:10 PM »
Immersion, has it occurred to you that if nobody pays for music any longer, many of the music-makers whose work you've enjoyed may stop releasing music to the public?  I suppose you'd say any music-maker who wants to receive any money in return for their work is "greedy" and "corporate," right? 

Why is it that you think someone who makes muffins deserves to be paid for the muffins, but someone who makes music has no right to make a deal with people who want to buy CDs from them for a fair price? 

We do not share reality, for me it is the opposite thanks to internet it is easier then ever to release albums.  If you only care about the money I think you got the wrong attitude and maybe it is best you keep the music for yourself ?
But as I said, I do not agree with your statement, that artists release less music because of internet.  Look at Robert Rich for example he did just release an 8CD live archive.

Muffins is an physical object which cost actually money to create, you need the ingredients and work time to create a muffin, for such service you could expect money. You can copy an muffin out of nothing.... Music however you can copy... Music however is only an experience, music in itself is made primarily because your own inner satisfaction and the driving force if you create independent music is not the money flow. If you want to earn money I suggest you create an company or something like that, cause music will not give you the $$$ you want, maybe you can get some pocket money at best ? But the dream to make a living on the music year 2009 really demands hard work from yourself..and a lot of live shows. Or you do as us deadly people get a job... or buy stocks ? or play poker or what ever you want ?

Everything and Nothing / Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« on: April 19, 2009, 02:02:15 PM »
Hey Immersion:

I take it that you think its ok to pirate movies and any software as well ? Basically anything that is digital?

Movies absolutely, you need to remember, they get a very little income by dvd sales, most of the income they get from cinema. There will always be a need  for people to watch films on cinema for it, since it is the ultimate experience to see the film on a big screen...and there is no indication that people goes less to cinema...

When it comes to software, it is quite different, software can cost a lot of money and man hours to do... however we are going towards a path...where it gets harder and harder to make money on software because of bigger completion and piracy......  I think Open source projects will with time take over.  As long as there is an need for something, things will be done in some way or another. I think Open Source and free software is the future and I think that is an very positive an very promising development which I think in the end will gain us all.

I am of the opinion that it is a human right to download the album and hear it before I decide to buy it. I do not feel like spending money on an album that I do not like.

A "human right?"  Gosh, who can argue with "human rights?"  That makes it sound so noble.

Maybe a slightly less euphemistic way of saying what you just said is that you think piracy/bootlegging is OK as long as you buy CDs of the downloaded materials you like best.

While that's a better approach that just downloading everything you want, and never buying anything, don't mistake this as a "human right" -- it's still a violation of the rights of the artists and labels in question.  Considering the number of independent artists and labels who visit this Forum, not to mention the fact that this Forum is owned by maintained by a record label, we're not going to get into pushing a point of view that piracy or bootlegging is harmless or a "human right."  Sheesh.

And again, giving people links or names of places where they can download pirated ambient music will not be accepted here.

This is an philosophical debate, I respect your opinion I hope you respect mine. Even though we live in an capitalistic market economy I think, no music holds an financial value, I do not agree with the thought that you must "pay" to hear music. It might have been so in the past when labels did not gives any other choice,  but now and in the future the music will flow free thanks to internet and file sharing, and I see this a good thing to let culture and information flow free.

I have no interest to protect Hollywood or the MTV top 100 mass produced crap industry. I only care about independent music which is not made to gain financial profit but only inner satisfaction and pleasure. We live in an time where almost every person can create music, build their own home studio and record music, you no longer need expensive studios to record music. Anyway, I have no respect for artists who "demand" money in return to listen to their music, it is something very wrong about that.

Maybe you are unaware, but the cd format and physical music media is dying a slow death. In future, we will need no labels or middle hands...who steals the artists income... And remember, the cd sale has always been a very little part of the income for artists, since the labels take everything, unless you have your own label of course... you get the most of the income by doing live shows and sell shirts etc

I am of the opinion that it is a human right to download the album and hear it before I decide to buy it. I do not feel like spending money on an album that I do not like.

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« on: April 18, 2009, 02:14:57 PM »
Still waiting to hear some professional opinion about the Redline Reverb.
I think I like it more now...I might use it in future... but still unsure how it compares with the impulse reverbs.

I am listening to it as well, I am still waiting for my CD, but I have downloaded it from [edited by forum administrator]. (yes please come and spank me)

I am not sure if it is as good as I expected, but it will definitely take some time to sink into this music, I think it will maybe grow
and with time new doors will be opened.
And I will wait to give my final judgment when I have my new soundcard and my headphone amp setup.
The sound is not smooth and clear enough with my soundcard Line 6 POD X3 (only a temporary solution)

But I can already now say, it is not better then Mystic Chords & Sacred Spaces. It is still Steve Roach's ultimate masterpiece.

[note: I deleted the name of the place where Immersion said he downloaded a bootleg copy of Dynamic Stillness.  While he paid for a copy, and I understand his eagerness to hear the music in advance of his CD arriving, it's not OK to tell people where they can download ambient music without paying for it -- not everybody is scrupulous enough to order the CD rather than just downloading it for free.  -mgriffin]

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« on: April 16, 2009, 09:55:46 AM »
Nice rack :)

Myself is saving up for the H8000FW and after that the PCM96 :)

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« on: April 16, 2009, 06:59:39 AM »
Lexicon Pantheon is a joke I must say, it sounds really crap, I think it destroys Lexicons trademark when they release such crap.

I still wish the Redline Reverb was more clean sounding and less "grainy". However this kind of grainy sound work excellent for some sounds though...
I really like the Waterfall reverbs (s)

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« on: April 16, 2009, 06:09:34 AM »
It is good if you seek a "warm" reverb, but in my opinion, this works best only with a certain kind of sounds, if you want that "warm feel"
If you want the "fresh" and crystal clear sound of Lexicon this might not be the best... atleast not what I have heard so far...
Even though it is said to be based on Lexicon sound....I am not sure I agree..

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« on: April 15, 2009, 07:28:42 PM » have anyone tried it ?
To my ears it sound ok, you can make very long reverbs with it.
But it is not as crystal clear as an hardware reverb probably.

Everything and Nothing / Re: Lossless .flac vs CD
« on: April 13, 2009, 07:06:51 PM »
I like Flac.  But I think the prices are unreasonable.

The only thing I really like about cds, is that you have to wait for it to arrive in your postbox.
I like the first time you hold the cd in your hand, then I play the cd ONE time, then I rip it to flac or mp3.
Then I never play the cd again. I do not even own a traditional cd player.

One more good thing about digital music, it does not take physical space, if I would have my entire mp3 collection as cd I would need to buy an new bigger apartment :)

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: How to create the Illusion...
« on: April 13, 2009, 06:25:38 PM »
The effect I am talking about, should work on all sounds, and maybe even whole mixes...

One hit and note should be demonstrate the technique.
It must sound like the sound is always on the "edge" of time, like it is only moving "downwards" in space & time.
If you understand, I want the form of the sound to feel "elastic" like you are dragging the sound back and forth.
To manipulate early reflections and the tail length in an probably a good start...

To use an stereo image balancing tool, to drag the sound towards the sides to the center might give the illusions of "falling".
Or that you get "sucked" into a black hole.

Wayne Higgins: I am listening to your song, and I am not sure this is what I am after.

Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: Oöphoi
« on: April 13, 2009, 06:15:19 PM »
Where can we read this story ?

Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: Oöphoi
« on: April 13, 2009, 04:27:54 PM »
That will be interesting to hear for sure and I am looking forward to hear his new Eventide Processors, I am sure it will sound amazing :)

Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: Oöphoi
« on: April 12, 2009, 11:10:49 PM »
His EP ALGOL I can recommend...a pure diamond...

Other Ambient (and related) Music / Re: Oöphoi
« on: April 11, 2009, 07:28:22 PM »
I do not think the market should be any concern, he should not compromise himself... I think he should just follow his instinct and  the flow, and just release everything that he thinks is good.
It does not matter if they on the surface sounds very similar, the mental experience is very different.. His music is more like abstract dreams...
When I put on my headphones in the night in bed...every listen is an different journey/voyage...

Well, it might be a good idea, to slow down..sit down and reflect... and seek a new essence....

Also maybe..not  release so many EPs, I think LPs have more profound impact and holds an deeper meaning....

Other Ambient (and related) Music / Oöphoi
« on: April 11, 2009, 04:04:15 PM »
Seems like Oöphoi has slowed down his release flow quite a bit...and his label "Umbra" has been pretty much dead since 2008.
I hope he has not lost his inspiration and artistic glow.

Music Gearheads Tech Talk / How to create the Illusion...
« on: April 10, 2009, 03:48:35 PM »
How to create the illusion of always "falling" endlessly with sound ?
You feel weightless...
Some Ambience have this drifting/falling feel (in an metaphysical sense).

I wonder how to create this illusion with sound ?
I know Pitch/Reverb is important maybe "stretching" as well.....but I would like to know more in depth if possible.

Well if some one could demonstrate the technique...

With a simple piano hit or something...and massive reverb...

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