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Messages - El culto

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81
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 09:54:33 PM »
Quote from: Immersion

…. your list….

I think i give up…

I wasn´t asking for your favorite albums, but to show just 3 simple examples where I and other interested people (following this thread) can hear the great sound and quality you are talking about! Then me and others can listen to it and make up their mind….very simple!

But, by bringing this huge list makes anything completely relative (again, i was NOT asking about your favorite albums NOR if you sometimes like lo-fi sounds)….so it really seems like you don´t want to answer my question!

I will ask again (and maybe albums are in this list): Are there 3 albums and/or tracks which represents the great sound by this special sound (clean, analogue etc) you are talking about all the time?

Quote from: Immersion
Well I was hoping about have a discussion about how creating the best sound quality possible, of course, what is best for me does not fit all,  the main argument here is that is not worth to invest money in "too expensive" equipment, cause you can mask it with eq and different mixing techniques.

You are clearly the master of presumptions! Please quote the person who said such a statement in this thread!….i´m sorry to say, but you won´t find anyone!

82
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 07:33:47 PM »
Quote from: Immersion

Regarding albums it is simply too much to mention  and what style of music are we talking about ?

I don´t mind at all - i´m open to many styles!

If there are so many to mention, then it´s very easy for you to tell me just 3!


83
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 07:26:23 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.

Immersion, i think you have a fundamental misunderstood about what people complaining!

Nobody is saying, that good quality isn´t appreciated - but it might be helpful to re-read your posts again and to understand how you express yourself! The problem is, that you speak about FACTS (!!!!) to whatever issue it comes. Examples from your latest post?

"To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day.."

"I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique"

As long as you speak only for your opinion then express it this way and don´t include ALL the others with your FACTS…you know as it is…opinions are like assholes…anybody has one  ;)

If you believe in what your are searching for…go for it but it´s a mistake to tell others what is the BEST, as the BEST does´t exist AT ALL….you can have the "best" gear but may fail to make music or to end up to be just a gear collector. At the end of the day, no one of the audience cares if you have Lexicon, Avaton, UAD or whatever…..for them ONLY the whole content, message and mood of the music is important - they give a shit about converters, bit rate and if the source is analogue or 100% digital. The only person who has a problem with this is actually YOU as you claim to be the "sound police".

Here are plenty people with enough experiences and they know very well what and how to archive results….if you talk ultimate about X or Y then at last prove it in some ways…either by audio examples, links or whatever…but just speaking ultimately about something without any example isn´t valuable - neither for professionals nor for starters in this forum.

84
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 06:40:51 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
Why I have not released anything is ONLY because of economical reasons I would say, it has taking me a lot of time to save up, first for a new computer 2009, I had a really slow computer before…

Well, then it´s definitely time for a new computer also….i mean, a machine from 2009 isn´t really the BEST!

Sorry, but I couldn´t resist  :D

BTW: Releasing music isn´t depending on economical reasons - plenty of labels out there!

85
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 05:41:43 PM »
Quote from: Immersion

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before.

I just have some Neumann´s and they aren´t expensive….but they are more expansive than Behringer…..but not as much as expansive than yours. So it seems like expansive is relative - right? So in your theory your monitors are better then mine just because they are more expansive - thats a funny logic….I always thought monitors are working tools and not a replacement for libido fixation  ;D

86
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 23, 2013, 05:20:11 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
But I can't simply find any driving force to create the music I have in my visions unless I get that dream sound I want my driving force is to take things one step further and the general production is for me for my own inner satisfaction a lot in the sound itself, ..and I am very close now in my studio where the equipment gives me really all the tools I need to realize my visions.  This was the only way for me..

Do you have some examples of music/albums on the market you would call it has this "dream sound", "clean" and "great production" you are looking for? Just 2 or 3 example i would like to hear from you so I can understand it better.



Quote from: Immersion
One of the main reason I bought my H8000 was cause I play guitar and it is just easy and inspiring tool.. one of the reason I want more outboard gear is cause I want to be less dependent on plugins I just want to be able to record more easy in real time and have things ready to record all the time, not dealing with plugs more then I have too, when I record I am always more of guy who prefer to record longer takes in real time. I am not a cut and paste guy.  Cause I want to sit down and express myself and let my mind drift away with the music.

So, you are saying you can´t record in realtime without hardware? As you have to setup software for that first, the same goes for hardware.

Quote from: Immersion
I prefer the analogue sound I use almost only virtual analogue plugins, and it is quite obvious that the real thing will sound even better then these plugins.

You should really bring concrete examples (so we can listen to the differences) instead of claiming facts all the time…."it is quite obvious" is such a meaningless phrase for instance.

87
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 03:31:16 PM »
My 2 cents about that…

Agree with most APK said before! Also use Wizooverb W2 and it´s great

But it´s really a matter of what you want to archive…for me any reverb work for ambient (even a lot of freeware…still use Sanford a lot). For me it´s quite funny making a fuss about reverb and then to look for plugins sounding like tape-emulations or trying to archive an old sound (i.e with bit reduction) :-D

Is anyone really believe the audience will hear the difference which reverb is used and judging then the music by this then in another way? In my opinion this is just a marketing gag of the audio industry…otherwise, how it possible to have great albums in the 80´s just made with a D-50 (incl the internal effects)?

Lets say it this way…the audio industry in today simply needs this "higher and better" just for selling their products. And beside that, most people starting with music today are just confused by all the "the best" options.

Cheers,
Tomas

It seem you are not a big fan of tape sound, and it sounds also like you have got wrong idea of what good tape sound is. Great tape sound will not in any shape or form destroy the audio it will just make it sound all better when it it is done right, it might just give the reverb the the final saturation which many reverbs lack,  Lexicon has beautiful satuartion and colour.   The highest quality converters such as  Crane song HEDD like Mike was talking about or BURL have both try to make the best from high quality tape sound.   It seem you worship the sound of cold sterile and "clean" digital sound.
problem is it is dead boring to listen to.. no interesting complex details and harmonics which you get from analogue sound by nature.
Especially synths in ambient need all saturating that you can get to make them sound good in my opinion,  tape saturating make everything sounds right in many cases and make beautiful harmonics so lets not talk down about tape sound, many of the absolute top producers use tape sound to summarize mixes, tape sounds does not need to be bad sounding "old scool" sound, it can also be super clean with just beautiful saturation and harmonics, this is the reason people adore the BURL transformers which is considered to be the best converters right now those transformers add "tape like" qualities.

will the audience here the difference which reverb is used ? if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would say no.  But since that time I have tried many different reverbs, and all reverbs have a different character same goes with synths,  I have some days ago received my Eventide H8000fw, looking forward to hear the reverb, but it is the pitch shifting reverbs with eventide that is very hard to not hear... if you have heard it.
I

I find quite often I hear what reverbs that is used,
But of course often it is really hard to tell.. some times more obvious...steve roach sound is unmistakably lexicon, I know he use eventide H3000 on some (darkest before dawn). But almost all of the time I am just surprised how bad reverbs people use, a lot of people use probably the internal effects of the soft synths which is always useless.  I have not heard one synth with good internal effects, omnisphere included.  Of course everyone decide what bar of sound quality they want.  but there is so many factors invovled if you have speakers that colour the sound that most people probably have a bad sounding reverb might sound beautiful,  all I can say is with my new Trident HG3 speakers I find it way easier to hear clear difference between good and bad reverbs.  The biggest problem with most reverbs is that they do not represent the full frequceny spectrum, they are capped ofteh the thigh end gets lost in the mud,  I am allergic to muddy reverb , and unfortunately this artifact is very common in the ambient scene today.

Before talking too much about "better" "best" etc…what about making an example on your site so anyone can hear the differences you are talking about? By seeing and haring all the gear you have I´m now really curious, so please give us the chance to understand the difference! So, can you please provide some examples/clips? Only that would be really helpful to understand what you are talking about!

Cheers,
Tomas

My studio is incomplete my signal chain is not complete,  also I am going to sell my Lynx converter and buy a BURL converter instead, I am still need a pre amp, to plugin my guitars, synths and microphones,  I use mostly software right now.. the things I use in my studio so far is only my HG3 speakers and dangerous audio source monitor controller. Most people would probably just buy something cheap But I prefer to buy the good stuff direcely life is too short to waste time with gear you do not like I am tired of it.  I hope in a few months I will be able to show you some examples of my gear if you want.

That would be helpful!…Just wondering how someone can talk about all the differences and how good/great/better it sounds like if he still haven´t got a ready made setup to provide any example?

88
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 21, 2013, 03:22:59 PM »
Yes, I meant "Suite" version when I said "Studio" version.

If you already own the Suite version, how much does Ableton charge for the version upgrade to the latest Studio version? As I said, I'm inclined to upgrade from Standard to Suite, but I wonder if that will mean my future version upgrades are much more expensive than they are for the Standard version.

I payed 170 Euro for the Upgrade as different versions like Standard/Suite didn´t exist in the version i upgraded from…there was only 1 version available at this time but i had the option to go either for the equal version (= 100 Euro - standard)  or the suite (= 170 Euro - suite) but Suite have much more features/content of course so it was clearly more expansive. As done in the past they just go for a relative upgrade price like other companies do. Of course, if you want at one point to crossgrade from standard to suite (like i did) this will be more expansive, but thats with any other DAW the same.

Cheers,
Tomas

89
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 03:01:57 PM »
My 2 cents about that…

Agree with most APK said before! Also use Wizooverb W2 and it´s great

But it´s really a matter of what you want to archive…for me any reverb work for ambient (even a lot of freeware…still use Sanford a lot). For me it´s quite funny making a fuss about reverb and then to look for plugins sounding like tape-emulations or trying to archive an old sound (i.e with bit reduction) :-D

Is anyone really believe the audience will hear the difference which reverb is used and judging then the music by this then in another way? In my opinion this is just a marketing gag of the audio industry…otherwise, how it possible to have great albums in the 80´s just made with a D-50 (incl the internal effects)?

Lets say it this way…the audio industry in today simply needs this "higher and better" just for selling their products. And beside that, most people starting with music today are just confused by all the "the best" options.

Cheers,
Tomas

It seem you are not a big fan of tape sound, and it sounds also like you have got wrong idea of what good tape sound is. Great tape sound will not in any shape or form destroy the audio it will just make it sound all better when it it is done right, it might just give the reverb the the final saturation which many reverbs lack,  Lexicon has beautiful satuartion and colour.   The highest quality converters such as  Crane song HEDD like Mike was talking about or BURL have both try to make the best from high quality tape sound.   It seem you worship the sound of cold sterile and "clean" digital sound.
problem is it is dead boring to listen to.. no interesting complex details and harmonics which you get from analogue sound by nature.
Especially synths in ambient need all saturating that you can get to make them sound good in my opinion,  tape saturating make everything sounds right in many cases and make beautiful harmonics so lets not talk down about tape sound, many of the absolute top producers use tape sound to summarize mixes, tape sounds does not need to be bad sounding "old scool" sound, it can also be super clean with just beautiful saturation and harmonics, this is the reason people adore the BURL transformers which is considered to be the best converters right now those transformers add "tape like" qualities.

will the audience here the difference which reverb is used ? if you asked me a couple of years ago, I would say no.  But since that time I have tried many different reverbs, and all reverbs have a different character same goes with synths,  I have some days ago received my Eventide H8000fw, looking forward to hear the reverb, but it is the pitch shifting reverbs with eventide that is very hard to not hear... if you have heard it.
I

I find quite often I hear what reverbs that is used,
But of course often it is really hard to tell.. some times more obvious...steve roach sound is unmistakably lexicon, I know he use eventide H3000 on some (darkest before dawn). But almost all of the time I am just surprised how bad reverbs people use, a lot of people use probably the internal effects of the soft synths which is always useless.  I have not heard one synth with good internal effects, omnisphere included.  Of course everyone decide what bar of sound quality they want.  but there is so many factors invovled if you have speakers that colour the sound that most people probably have a bad sounding reverb might sound beautiful,  all I can say is with my new Trident HG3 speakers I find it way easier to hear clear difference between good and bad reverbs.  The biggest problem with most reverbs is that they do not represent the full frequceny spectrum, they are capped ofteh the thigh end gets lost in the mud,  I am allergic to muddy reverb , and unfortunately this artifact is very common in the ambient scene today.

Before talking too much about "better" "best" etc…what about making an example on your side so anyone can hear the differences you are talking about? By seeing and haring all the gear you have I´m now really curious, so please give us the chance to understand the difference! So, can you please provide some examples/clips? Only that would be really helpful to understand what you are talking about!

Cheers,
Tomas

90
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Digital to analog converters
« on: November 21, 2013, 01:54:27 PM »
My 2 cents about that…

Agree with most APK said before! Also use Wizooverb W2 and it´s great

But it´s really a matter of what you want to archive…for me any reverb work for ambient (even a lot of freeware…still use Sanford a lot). For me it´s quite funny making a fuss about reverb and then to look for plugins sounding like tape-emulations or trying to archive an old sound (i.e with bit reduction) :-D

Is anyone really believe the audience will hear the difference which reverb is used and judging then the music by this then in another way? In my opinion this is just a marketing gag of the audio industry…otherwise, how it possible to have great albums in the 80´s just made with a D-50 (incl the internal effects)?

Lets say it this way…the audio industry in today simply needs this "higher and better" just for selling their products. And beside that, most people starting with music today are just confused by all the "the best" options.

Cheers,
Tomas

91
To make a quite dark comment….probably "passing threads" are probably the most active ones when people get active to post. Not much surprising but still a bit strange in my view

...

92
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 21, 2013, 01:10:54 PM »
Mike, i have updated to 9 from Version 6 and i´m happy i did!

I haven´t spend time with Max but it looks promising….but for all the other changes they made it´s a HUGE improvement! I love the new browser, as it is much more clearer and easy to navigate through. Also the cpu usage hasn´t changed on all on my computer - and that´s a big plus when having 3 versions between!

I played a bit with the audio to midi option and it works really well! Tried as a test some schumann piano pieces to see how good the algorithm works - the results were more than acceptable! Just some duration mistakes but otherwise almost 1:1 and that is really amazing! Couldn´t done better by Melodyne!!!

Ordered also the Push controller…and that is really a killer!!! The integration is almost perfect and VERY easy to navigate through racks and patches…the only criticism i have is that right now the integration works only for Ableton plugs smoothly…for 3rd party vst/vsti you have to build a rack first….but i´m pretty sure this will be fixed with a next update! Forget about any other 3rd party controller - Push blow all away (and the best, it´s manufactured by AKAI).

Will update here, after going more into all the adds!

Greetings,
Tomas


Tomas

Thanks for your thoughts about the Live 9 upgrade. I already have the Akai APC20, so I'll just continue to work with that, rather than get rid of it and purchase a Push.

I'm leaning toward getting the Studio version of 9 rather than the Standard version. Max for Live is interesting to me as something to explore creating my own devices, and I also think some of the pre-built Max for Live devices might be useful.

Yeah, APC20 isn´t bad at all too…but with any of those controllers it´s always the same issue - you have to adjust a lot of parameters…that´s why i mentioned the great integration of Push. If you have a bit spare money i think it´s worth to think about the suite version…really, it comes with a lot of great additional instruments and a huge library. Still haven´t used Max so far…but is it included in the studio/standard version? I don´t think so but maybe you meant the Suite anyway...

Cheers,
Tomas

93
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 19, 2013, 05:48:15 PM »
well, I understand people take it personal when expressing a disklike for a DAW, but it is like that, every one use different DAW and all think they are the best..

You will be surprised, but Live is not my main DAW  ;D Sorry to disappoint, but actually it´s Cubase!

Quote from: Immersion
My references regarding audio quality in ableton, I am sorry but I will not dig up many year old threads on forums.

A shame, as this would make your clearly expressed conclusion more valuable!

Quote from: Immersion
in the version nine they say on their website that the rendering audio quality has been " dramatically improved" so I guess it was not good before.

I guess the earth is a pane  ;D

94
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 19, 2013, 12:51:57 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
people in different forums did complan about the sound quality...

Do you have any references/links?

My complain is, that you speak much too general and just judging by what people in forums (!) saying. Don´t want to sound negative, but imo this isn´t really a good source!

Quote from: Immersion
Ok but  a lot of people use it only for session view I can promise you that..

I can promise, that a lot of people use A or B for C and D….this kind of statement works for anything when you are not concrete about something...you get the point?

Quote from: Immersion
Why are you using ableton ?

:: extremely stable (especially for live conditions)
:: really cpu friendly
:: easy to use for quick ideas
:: perfect looping options
:: warp markers
:: configurable for several screens
:: audio to midi (new)
:: rack options
:: tweaking in session while recorded in view with edit options afterwards
:: library (suite)
:: etc

95
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 19, 2013, 12:35:40 PM »
Mike, i have updated to 9 from Version 6 and i´m happy i did!

I haven´t spend time with Max but it looks promising….but for all the other changes they made it´s a HUGE improvement! I love the new browser, as it is much more clearer and easy to navigate through. Also the cpu usage hasn´t changed on all on my computer - and that´s a big plus when having 3 versions between!

I played a bit with the audio to midi option and it works really well! Tried as a test some schumann piano pieces to see how good the algorithm works - the results were more than acceptable! Just some duration mistakes but otherwise almost 1:1 and that is really amazing! Couldn´t done better by Melodyne!!!

Ordered also the Push controller…and that is really a killer!!! The integration is almost perfect and VERY easy to navigate through racks and patches…the only criticism i have is that right now the integration works only for Ableton plugs smoothly…for 3rd party vst/vsti you have to build a rack first….but i´m pretty sure this will be fixed with a next update! Forget about any other 3rd party controller - Push blow all away (and the best, it´s manufactured by AKAI).

Will update here, after going more into all the adds!

Greetings,
Tomas

96
Music Gearheads Tech Talk / Re: Ableton Live 9 and Max for Live
« on: November 19, 2013, 12:05:32 PM »
Quote from: Immersion link
.. which is use the cpu better and gives better sound quality.

I would really like to know what are the reasons you claim that Reaper has better sound quality? Any proofs for that?

Quote from: Immersion
"the latest Sonar X3 seem to be very inspired form Ableton it have the session view...which is the only thing why people use ableton.

It seems you have a strong and especially personal (!) idea about why people are using Live! I´m sorry to say, but your judgement does´t work for me at last  ;D

Cheers,
Tomas

97
Quote from: mgriffin
I expect there will be many excited users saying "Wow, this is insanely fast and quiet, and I have 3 separate 4k displays connected via HDMI and they all look amazing…" that sort of thing.

LOL  ;D Very likely!

Quote from: mgriffin
The people who will be disappointed -- those we discussed earlier, who need lots of internal expansion capabilities -- already know they will be disappointed based on the specs announced. They probably won't be surprised, positively or negatively.

I´m not sure about that…as we see in the video (and also other places) there are quite a lot of complains about it even before available….usually this happened very seldom with new stuff by Apple! I assume (pro) customers in this time are more aware and having good comparison options (especially to the previous model).

98
Was curious and checked the German refurbished shop some minutes ago…same here - nothing at all and i do remember very well at last 5-10 Mac Pro´s on stock when i looked for the Macbook i mentioned earlier…that´s really surprising and probably for the reason you mentioned.

Had also a look on Ebay and (at last here) there are some few sellers still having the previous model. Really curious if Apple is making business with the new model! Maybe they do the same U-turn like Microsoft did with XP  ;D

Cheers,
Tomas

99
Thanks Guys for all the comments!

I´ve finally decided to wait too…anyway i´m fine with Mountain Lion so far.

Cheers,
Tomas

100
Agreed!

Another option: You may find one of the latest previous Mac Pro which can add a lot of RAM too - but probably (like for all 2nd Hand Macs) you will have to pay still a steep price.

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