Author Topic: Re: Who you will vote ?  (Read 12879 times)

jim brenholts

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2008, 08:14:20 AM »
Having been singed the few times I participated in the "no holds barred" debates, I can't say that I miss the section that much.  But if that section were to be brought back, I think at a minimum that the use of real names should be required.  It's too easy to hide inflammatory remarks behind a fake name.  I want to communicate with a real person, not a avatar.

Forrest
forest, is communicating with an avatar anything like communicating with a lawyer?
all the best and God bless
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jkn

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2008, 08:32:12 AM »
As someone who's been a regular here since Mike first turned on the forum... I know many people that stopped coming around due to the childish nature of a very few people. 

Mike did a great thing by creating a separate "no holds barred" section - but even that was abused by a few people.  Sad, but true. 

I think Mike took the right path on this - some of the childish folks are otherwise some of the best posters in music terms. 
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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2008, 08:35:26 AM »
I'm a bit puzzled, still, at the sense that by saying "let's not talk about politics here" I have somehow harmed those people who want to talk about that subject.  As I've said and as others have noted, there are many, many more places to talk about politics online, than there are places to discuss ambient music.

I thought Giorgio/Solyaris had something to contribute to this forum but I can't do anything about his sense of feeling wronged or injured.  I hope he'll come back at some point.
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judd stephens

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2008, 11:19:04 AM »
I'm a bit puzzled, still, at the sense that by saying "let's not talk about politics here" I have somehow harmed those people who want to talk about that subject.  As I've said and as others have noted, there are many, many more places to talk about politics online, than there are places to discuss ambient music.


This forum is a community of people who often see their fellow participators as colleagues or friends.  You're right, if Giorgio and myself, and anybody else wants to go talk about politics somewhere on a forum in the USA, yep, there are plenty of places to go.   I'll bet Giorgio has made friendships and connections on this forum, and I've at least been able to identify with many of the musicians/members here in the past on one level or another, to the point where we feel comfortable enough with each other to talk about more serious topics.  So in this case, I doubt people are looking for an anonymous group of people with whom to go and talk politics or the like. 

As far as feeling harmed or injured, well not me.  Frustrated is more like it, but it's not that bad or anything.  I'm a little frustrated with the 2 folks that caused this whole thing, but equally frustrated at so many applauding the silencing of all serious civil/political discussion in this forum as the alternative.  To me it would be very hard to police everything that is considered annoying, bothersome, or downright shameful.  There have been a lot of weird anecdotes in this forum that I will finally let go and elaborate (the questioning of Solyaris' character a couple years ago by several forumites, the feuds between sk and M.M that would break out in the strangest of threads, Orion 32 gone wild, GAB, and the recent Kenji Siratori witchhunt)  all that stuff was a little strange to read, and it wasn't even in the Free For All Section, but I had the choice of avoiding it or not, and never would I think of pm'ing the moderator to judge what is tasteful, especially since the moderators here also are members and sometimes say things that rub me the wrong way.  It's kind of the price you pay to have any strong opinion even in ambient music as we have seen at one time or another- we all have out touchy subjects or offend someone.  In fact after posting something strong I never feel that great afterwards- it's always like my goose is cooked or something- in act I can relate with those who say they feel compelled to post but don't really enjoy it.  Bill B. please make another post.  It'll help, or maybe just an icon- here you go people  ;D

 


Seren

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2008, 11:37:31 AM »
Hmmm - I started off writing a short snappy post but it sort of developed, sorry.....

I recently worked with an African guy and we ended up having a discussion around politics. For me it was an attempt to understand why people in Africa seem so willing to kill each other over the subject.

In the UK it is impossible to imagine riots and killing sprees if any of the political parties got voted into government. I know we can get very heated here and in some areas ostracise people who vote differently, but there is a general sense that fighting over politics is not worth it.

However, it came down to me developing my understanding that our politics are no longer (in general) direct matters of life and death. His personal and family experiences of brutality, torture and killings are genuinely horrifying and all tied into clan/tribe/power issues. We have a freedom that is not experienced by everyone which is both a blessing, and in some ways a curse - people are generally 'free' to discuss anything they want and get as outraged and reactive as they like without fear of recrimination.

Although Freedom is important, I do not think it is worth tearing communities, even cyber ones apart over hostile and partisan interactions. I take my hat off to Mike (and other moderators) as it is a very difficult position to take - you are complained about whatever you do - In the same way that I suspect many of us do not discuss everything about our lives with every set of people we interact with, I think we should not expect to be able to discuss everything in one forum.



SunDummy

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2008, 11:44:13 AM »
Unfortunately, web forums are not good at self-policing.  When you sit around with your friends, discussing the world, the topics jump all over the place, from common interests to news of the day to politics to religion, etc.  Sometimes the discussions get heated, but in a face-to-face setting, people are much more likely to be respectful and to stick to the arguments, while avoiding personal attacks and insults.  People who get too out-of-hand get 'peer pressured' into calming down; or, if they are consistently provocative or insulting, they just aren't invited to events with that group.  They group tends to keep itself ordered.

On the web, there are no such pressures to behave, so bad behavior does not get corrected.  I don't know you, and you don't know me, so I can say whatever I want, and once I log off, there are no repercussions, no pressures to be respectful.  I can come back later and be a complete a-hole, or a sweetheart - either way, other than flames from other members (which I can just ignore), there is nothing compelling me to act decent.  That's the whole reason forums have moderators - someone has to keep the peace.

I visit several forums; one has a "no holds barred" section with some simple rules, that seems to work.  One has almost NO policing at all; the moderators only get involved when they feel there may be legal issues if they allow nasty slander or threats (and it has gotten to the point on several occasions where there were actually people threatening other members in the "real world" off-forum, which put the forum's hosts in a potential liability situation).  The board with almost no rules has gotten pretty unpleasant; people post porn, slander, and other nasty crap, to the point that finding actual content takes work.

Mike's solution may seem 'odd' to some, but I think it's the best way to stop all the BS without requiring a ton of moderator time to keep order.  I'd love to have a discussion about this election with as many people as possible; that's how I learn new ideas and points of view.  But as the owner of one of the other boards I frequent said, "If that's what you want, no one's stopping you from starting your own forum.  But here in my house, you're gonna follow my rules."

And folks, it is NOT censorship to tell someone they can't come and crap in your living room.  You're free to crap all you want, just not here.
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judd stephens

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2008, 12:08:57 PM »

And folks, it is NOT censorship to tell someone they can't come and crap in your living room.  You're free to crap all you want, just not here.

Well if people kept crapping in my living room, I'd probably want someone else to host for a while... ;)

judd stephens

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2008, 12:29:46 PM »

On the web, there are no such pressures to behave, so bad behavior does not get corrected.  I don't know you, and you don't know me, so I can say whatever I want, and once I log off, there are no repercussions, no pressures to be respectful.  I can come back later and be a complete a-hole, or a sweetheart - either way, other than flames from other members (which I can just ignore), there is nothing compelling me to act decent.  That's the whole reason forums have moderators - someone has to keep the peace.


Maybe it's my naivete' about forum etiquette, because I do try to impose limits on my behavior, not at the expense of passionate opinion or inquiry mind you;  feeling like that what I type here is an extension of myself, not some kind of character, however different it may appear from the speaking "self" that you may find in person.  I don't enjoy the repercussions of flaming forum members- after all I enjoy returning to the same forum and may talk with that person again on another topic.  I think most of us on this forum are like that too.  That's why I don't understand removing all conversation about civics/politics amongst mostly civilized folks, because a minority (like 2 members) of otherwise ordinary guys lose it occasionally.  I just respectfully disagree with such a broad stroke, if you will, and agree with Mike's second guessing that maybe reprimanding the offenders is a solution.  My stance is not to remove all police- I just disagree with the new method chosen to police us.   

ps by the way this might look like a contradiction from earlier of how I said "we're all going to offend each other at some point"- that's not to justify crazy, out of control antics, threats, abuse, etc.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 12:38:49 PM by judd stephens »

ffcal

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2008, 12:49:04 PM »
Unfortunately, web forums are not good at self-policing.

I'd have to agree with this, and would go further to say that it's almost a universal truth.  Recent events have cast doubt on the viability of "enlightened" self-interest, and on a smaller level, isn't it always the case that it takes one or a few selfish people to spoil it for everyone else?  It's almost as if you need rules to keep people on their best behavior once you've exceeded a certain critical mass.

Forrest

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2008, 12:54:35 PM »
"... it takes one or a few selfish people to spoil it for everyone else?"

Yep, that pretty much sums up world history.
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mgriffin

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2008, 01:12:25 PM »
...isn't it always the case that it takes one or a few selfish people to spoil it for everyone else?  It's almost as if you need rules to keep people on their best behavior once you've exceeded a certain critical mass.
Forrest

I agree with this, and think this is really the heart of the matter.  Almost everyone, if told "You can discuss this subject, under these restrictions," will either A) not discuss the subject at all, or B) discuss the subject and adhere to the restrictions. 

All it takes is one person to ignore the restrictions, though, and things will so quickly become inflamed into anger and name-calling that everyone forgets the restrictions, or at least immediately judges the restrictions less important than the affront they (or their ideas) have just suffered.  Once the line has been crossed it's impossible to go back and restore the kind of restraint and respect that existed before the blow-up.
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Bill Binkelman

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Re: Who you will vote ?
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2008, 01:26:49 PM »
Well, to make my point clear:

(1) Mike, I have no problem with what you did, because since you have chosen to be an active moderator, if it was causing you a headache, then obviously pull the plug.
(2) I don't miss the section a lot, except for the entertainment value and also reading what people have to say, which I find interesting. It's fascinating, IMO, to find out that people who are united by such a niche-driven thing as ambient music have WILDLY divergent opinions about important topics. For example, I was caught off-guard by how many people here are fairly hawkish. I naively assumed we all were "peace and love" folks! Just goes to show the hippie in me never died!  ;D
(3) What I find dispiriting is WHY people complained to Mike? I mean, seriously, WTF? Why lay it on his doorstep? If you're offended by something here, the solution seems crystal clear to me, either:
(a) contact the offender, tell them how you feel, and you'll either get an "I'm sorry" or a "Fark you!"
or, and this makes more sense
(b) CHANGE THE CHANNEL (virtually speaking). I mean, come on folks, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that a thread with the title "Democrats/Republicans screw the pooch of democracy once again" is going to contain some, ahem, "heated" statements. If you were puritanical, would you click on a link entitled "HOT UNDERAGE ASIAN GIRLS (or BOYS)"? I think not...I think not.

I have to side with the few here who opine that talking about important subjects makes our community STRONGER and grows the bonds between us, even if we disagree. But, as stated earlier, since Mike considers this a moderated board, and has no issue with people contacting him over objectionable stuff, then yeah, I support what he did since I wouldn't want to put up with it either. The difference between Mike and I is I simply would tell people "Don't like it? Don't read the topic." Neither view, Mike nor mine, is better or worse, just different.

I do agree that every year the presence of ITG syndrome (Internet Tough Guy) gets more and more pervasive on the Web. I have many times admitted that in the 90s and early 00s, I was a complete royal pain in the ass in nearly every newsgroup and forum I participated on (I was the living embodiment of the Woody Allen phrase "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."), but I hope that in recent years I have done a much better job at keeping my cool. I know that even when I was a hothead, something that Groove's Kees Aerts always said about me was "Bill is a hothead but at least he apologizes afterwards."

And I think that's the crux of what happens here...those few folks who are the hottest headed don't know when to engage the "I'm sorry" button. I love having civil arguments, even heated ones, but in the end, ya gotta shake hands and on the Internet, that seldom happens. It's usually "Oh, fark you and the horse you rode in on, ya moron."

Ahh, yes, another Binkelman novella...wouldn't it be great if one day I would learn to be concise? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Carry on my wayward sons!  :)