Author Topic: The Black Hole Reverb  (Read 46346 times)

mgriffin

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2009, 09:47:46 AM »
To me, the idea of casual, hobbyist musicians or recordists buying $4000-$5000 reverbs is totally insane.  I'm not saying there's no difference between reverbs, but once you get to a PCM91 or a TC M3000, which you can find used for more reasonable amounts of money, you're already so close to reverb nirvana that the only reason to spend the extra few thousand bucks is if you're A) an actual recording professional, or B) so rich that price doesn't matter.

Otherwise, any hobbyist who thinks they need to spend five grand on a single box is just in love with gear for gear's sake.  I've been there myself so I know how it goes -- I spent $3,500 on a Cranesong DA converter I really didn't need, years ago, because I thought it was so cool.  My recordings certainly didn't benefit noticeably from having the Cranesong in my studio and I eventually sold it.  I don't buy stuff like that any more.

If you're a millionaire, or a musician/engineer making a living from tools like these, then more power to you.  I'm sure if a studio guy like Paul Vnuk has certain pieces of gear in his arsenal it not only adds an important tool that he can actually use regularly, but also helps attract more business --. "ooooh, you've got a rack full of Manley and and Avalon and Empirical stuff, awesome."  Otherwise I think a lot of musicians and recordists sort of kid themselves, spending more time choosing reverbs than actually, you know, recording.  It's sort of like a photographer I knew who loved cameras and had a collection of great Leica and Hasselblad and Nikon cameras and lenses, a hundred grand worth of stuff at least, but who almost never actually took off the lens caps.
[ Mike Griffin, Hypnos Recordings ] email mg (at) hypnos.com | http://hypnos.com | http://twitter.com/mgsoundvisions

Ekstasis

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2009, 10:08:37 AM »
We all have different needs you know...

Reverb is certainly one thing that is worth spending the money on...especially if you use it heavily in your mixes...It is an easy way to reach a professional studio sound.
To say something else is stupid... But it all depends on how you use it...if you use it as an instrument or more subtle, if you use it more subtle
in your mixes you can get away with a cheap crap reverb. But to spend atleast 1000 dollars on an reverb I think is reasonable, PCM91 You can get for about 1000 dollars in the states...  to spend the money for an PCM96 is questionable perhaps...Some of the cheaper Lexicon models will probably work...


X-verb + Duende PCIe cost a little bit less and might sound as good or even better as Lexicon from what I have heard. But to judge who is
better or not is also a matter of prerfference, the line between the two might be very thin in practice...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=dfe5f62acfb7687db64026cfc061123651ba11b20b0ce890c95965eaa7bc68bc only samples of the X-verb I found so far...it is unfortunately only vocals in these samples...would be interesting to hear more sound sources too.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 10:38:26 AM by Immersion »

petekelly

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2009, 12:17:16 PM »
'Immersion'

You're barking up the wrong tree with this.

Reverberation isn't an instrument and it's not going to be an integral part of writing interesting
material. The 'input' to any reverberation process is still the primary point of interest

Incidentally, The best quality reverb we hear every day - natural reverberation. Its a 'descriptor'
of acoustic spaces. Clap your hands in different rooms and places, go to a cathederal and get a
longer decay, try the same in tunnels and the like. It's still not a musical parameter as such.

Saying that, Jim Cole's overtone singing in a water tower is an instance where an artist used a
particular (physical) acoustic to interact with in a performance:

http://www.spectralvoices.com/secondpg.htm

Pete

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2009, 07:29:17 PM »
There is a lot of wisdom in Mr. Griffin's words. Even running a professional studio in today's market there is a point of diminishing returns, and for me the bottom line has always been, do I have the clientele to support, justify and realistically pay for this equipment. I sat down 5 years ago and made a wish list of what I really felt was necssary to sustain a studio and sound design buisness in my market, I then stayed focused and spent the next 5 years systematically acquiring said gear. I also had the benefit of being a reviewer for a magazine so often I get to play with these dream pieces before actually making a purchase and more times than not I end up realizing that although a piece of gear is cool...I don't really need it for day to day business survival.

Decide what you want, then decide what you need, then figure out how to pay for it. Often the best course of getting what you want is to avoid the pitfalls of good deals on lesser gear. If you want a pcm 91, don't buy a Duende in the mean time...although the Duende will give you a cool channel strip, so it is a choice.

I also have a rule which most "gear slutz" think is crazy...if there is a piece of gear in my studio which I have not used in 6 months, it gets sold.

Also, back to Mike's post I will also add that often times, your music and final product stands a chance of being far superior if you take the $1000 you were going to spend on gear and spend it on professional studio time with a professional engineer. I can attest to the fact that when we recorded Imaginarium years ago that it would not have been as good as it was without having an outside engineer mix it through their high end gear and a real outboard console and EQ's ect.

Ok...I am rambling now

Cheers,

Paul
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Ekstasis

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2009, 08:45:27 PM »
'Immersion'

You're barking up the wrong tree with this.

Reverberation isn't an instrument and it's not going to be an integral part of writing interesting
material. The 'input' to any reverberation process is still the primary point of interest

Incidentally, The best quality reverb we hear every day - natural reverberation. Its a 'descriptor'
of acoustic spaces. Clap your hands in different rooms and places, go to a cathederal and get a
longer decay, try the same in tunnels and the like. It's still not a musical parameter as such.

Saying that, Jim Cole's overtone singing in a water tower is an instance where an artist used a
particular (physical) acoustic to interact with in a performance:

http://www.spectralvoices.com/secondpg.htm

Pete


It is true. The so called "realistic" reverb...is not very musical...so an realistic reverb for me is not an perfect reverb..
You get way better sound with most reverb units...then in reality... of course...there is extreme examples....
What create the Lexicon sound is not realism...it is the modulation...which make the tails sound smooth..

APK

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2009, 05:54:57 PM »
Note on the excellent Aether reverb plugin software.

Martin Walker (recent Sound On Sound):
"Overall, I was deeply impressed by Aetherís rich and versatile sound,
and itís the best-sounding native plug-in reverb Iíve heard to date, by
a long chalk."
www.dataobscura.com
www.dataobscura.com/apk
The Circular Ruins / Lammergeyer / Nunc Stans

Ekstasis

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2009, 06:00:28 PM »
For ambient Ariesverb is way better I think...
Also the new X-verb Is most likely 10 times better....
Still waitinf for the damn reviews... But I am very interesting of
how it does compare with hardware reverbs.

Sunbreak Music

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2009, 08:10:26 AM »
Reviews of reverbs always say the same thing...."Lush, deep, blah blah....none of the graininess I've come to expect from plug-ins, blah blah blah".

Then I try them and think they suck.   ;D

Sure, there are acceptable plugs for 'verb (tend to be DSP based), but I've not heard them stand up to hardware, and especially what's necessary for deep ambient music.   

IMO, of course.   ;)
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2009, 07:19:54 PM »
I would have to agree with Sunbreak,

I have used plenty of hi-end in the box verbs for pop and rock and the best of the best in my opinion is the CSR Hall, The VSS3 for the TC powercore and the new EMT 250 for UAD-2 of course the last two run on a dsp card so while they are plug-ins they really are hardware verbs in disguise.

Anyway the closest I have come to finding a verb which really does the deep ambient long tale thing in the box is the TC VSS3, maybe the CSR Hall which sounds like a software version of the Alesis Wedge, and while they work in a pinch, sorry but nothing replaces a high-end outboard box.

Its getting better, but we are not there yet.

Paul

"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Sunbreak Music

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #89 on: August 26, 2009, 08:12:56 AM »
I would have to agree with Sunbreak,

I have used plenty of hi-end in the box verbs for pop and rock and the best of the best in my opinion is the CSR Hall, The VSS3 for the TC powercore and the new EMT 250 for UAD-2 of course the last two run on a dsp card so while they are plug-ins they really are hardware verbs in disguise.

Anyway the closest I have come to finding a verb which really does the deep ambient long tale thing in the box is the TC VSS3, maybe the CSR Hall which sounds like a software version of the Alesis Wedge, and while they work in a pinch, sorry but nothing replaces a high-end outboard box.

Its getting better, but we are not there yet.

Paul


I'm a big fan of the VSS3 as well.  No better unit for spatial positioning--the early reflection algorithms are crazy good.  I can even use it in mastering (it's a secret, though) to improve clarity and give dimension without adding "reverb".

Still on the old UAD-1 (Mackie card, to be exact!), so I haven't tried the EMT 250.  Did you ever check out the DVR2 for Poco/System 6000?  I'd be interested to hear what you think of the difference, or if there is any.
Cass Anawaty, Mastering Engineer
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2009, 08:06:16 AM »
The DVR2 was one of my favorite verbs for percussion and vocals before I got Eventide and Lexicon. In fact for most genres other than ambient, I found myself using it more than the VSS-3.

I have not as of yet a-b'd it with the new UAD-2 Plate though, although I will say I actually preferred it to the original Plate reverb for the UAD-1.

Paul
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

LNerell

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2009, 11:10:18 AM »
Their is no new plate reverb from UAD-2, but their is a new EMT 250 which is an emulation of one of the first digital reverbs. For me I like the VSS4 way better then VSS3, but you can't get that for the powercore, only the Reverb 4000 or 6000 units.
Take care.

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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: The Black Hole Reverb
« Reply #92 on: August 28, 2009, 11:54:41 AM »
Sorry you are right, I call it a plate as at the time it was the 1st digital recreation of a real plate reverb and I hear tons of engineers refer to it as a digital plate reverb, even though it had more extensive settings. Probably also has to do with the fact that it was by EMT which is usually synonymous with real plates.

None the less, the DVR-2 and the new UAD-2 version are both modeled after the same digital hardware, I still cannot comment on the sound differences, but I will say that functionally the UAD-2 has all of the original parameters and settings plus basic delay and such, where as the DVR focuses on just the digital plate aspect.

Paul
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:05:21 PM by Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le) »
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK