Author Topic: CD-R Deterioration  (Read 26022 times)

zzzone.net

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CD-R Deterioration
« on: November 23, 2008, 02:08:37 PM »
Hi ya'll.

I have this ridiculously large collection of music on CD that I am ripping to .flac files for my music server.

As the title says, I have run across at least 2 CD-Rs by ambient musicians that have deteriorated to the point of being unreadable by all the drives I have (4 CD players, 5 DVD-RWs, etc).

Why do I bring this up?

There are a lot of musicians using CD-R now and hopefully those discs will retain the beautiful music as they should...or will they?

One of my bad discs has been replaced by the musician.  The other disc is apparently not replaceable as the disc is out of print (Michael J Harris: Blind Cinema).  If anyone can give or sell me a copy of the latter I would appreciate it.  I can email you a picture of me holding the disc and cover for proof.

Anyway, musicians should consider shying away from releasing their "timeless" ambient music on CD-Rs that appear to be timed to deteriorate.  :-\

Happy Holidays, ya'll.

Jim
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APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 02:38:03 PM »
This is an oft discussed topic.

I've actually had more regular CDs go bad than CDR's. Which surprises me. People's mileage varies though. It has a lot to do with how they are treated and stored. The sun is a major enemy. But there is the problem of some CDR blanks simply being better than others, and labels/individuals should not blindly use the cheapest they can find.

Of course backing up the music is a good thing to do to all disks. I used to backup vinyl to tape back in the day ... but the disks lasted much longer than the tape  ;D

At DataObscura I will automatically replace any CDR that goes bad. But I've had to do that with just 2 or 3 in total over the years.
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Ekstasis

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 02:39:02 PM »
The reality is, it really depends in what cd-r media you are using, since the quality are varied...

For instance, if you buy cdr/dvdr with "Taiyo Yuden" you will have the same quality if not better then "professional" cd/dvd's. Taiyo Yuden did invent the CDr technology in the 80s.

Those cd/dvds that is not first grade, they sell to brands like Verbatim etc etc they get the second grade shit.

However Taiyo Yuden can be quite hard to get, you might need to look more to find it..
But it is more expensive then non-quality media..there for more non-popular.
However if you want Taiyo Yuden quality make sure to check the media code, I know for instance
Plextor sell Taiyo Yuden dvd's under the name plextor...

http://www.mediaprostore.com/Taiyo-Yuden.html?gclid=CJ_Ntp-fjJcCFUog3godcketDA

Ekstasis

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 02:47:11 PM »
This is an oft discussed topic.

I've actually had more regular CDs go bad than CDR's. Which surprises me. People's mileage varies though. It has a lot to do with how they are treated and stored. The sun is a major enemy. But there is the problem of some CDR blanks simply being better than others, and labels/individuals should not blindly use the cheapest they can find.

Of course backing up the music is a good thing to do to all disks. I used to backup vinyl to tape back in the day ... but the disks lasted much longer than the tape  ;D

At DataObscura I will automatically replace any CDR that goes bad. But I've had to do that with just 2 or 3 in total over the years.


Also the CDDA is a damn old and obsolete standard with many flaws...
DVDa is much better when it comes to error correction...so it is not as sensitive to scratches etc...

If you want to feel secure for instance when you rip a cd to the computer you need more then once reference point to be sure...that your rip is accurate..that is how unsafe the CDDA standard is...

Personally I always use 2 to 3 reference points, 2 cd-rom's and accurate rip (if the cd is in the database).
Also I use ultra secure more in dBpoweramp Reference, which basically read each sector on the cd 1-5 times.

I really which new and modern cdda would include more meta data which would make this more easy and secure... it is in theory possible..to add such meta data in data track on the end of the disc. But again I doubt any of this will happen, they do not even want us to copy the music at all, it is strictly illegal to make copies :)

And by the way if you have problem to read scratched cds this has a lot of to do with what cd-rom you are using, the ability to read defective cds vary a lot, I have done a lot research about this, and the "Teac 224" dvd drive is the best choice of this, in combination with dBpoweramp Reference, it has a special ripping mode for such cds "defective by design" which is specially designed for defective and unreadable cds...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 02:52:58 PM by Immersion »

zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 02:56:52 PM »
I am also using dBpoweramp in secure mode.

So far I have approximately 30,000 tracks ripped.

By the way the Matthew J Harris disc was produced in 2001.

So far I have not run across any unreadable regular CDs, but I remember an old Gothic disc I had that had the "CD rot" that was supposed to eat my whole collection someday.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 03:04:58 PM by jimzzzak »

Ekstasis

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 03:04:00 PM »
Ah ok good then, well your only hope would be to try with an different cd drive...that might be able to recover those tracks...

zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 03:11:36 PM »
I have tried many drives for each of the "faded" discs with no luck.

From now on when I get a CD-R, I will rip immediately, then place it in an opaque vacuum container, and store at -70 deg F in the basement where gamma radiation is less prevalent.   ;D

APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 03:13:48 PM »
I was going to add that I've had more CD Drives go bad than CDs. One just this past week.
They are mechanical and simply wear out with a lot of use, then they don't read/burn so accurately.
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Ekstasis

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 03:31:33 PM »
I have tried many drives for each of the "faded" discs with no luck.

From now on when I get a CD-R, I will rip immediately, then place it in an opaque vacuum container, and store at -70 deg F in the basement where gamma radiation is less prevalent.   ;D

Sounds like a good idea, I always do that, I do not even own a cd player :)
I always rip cd to flac and burn it on dvd-r.

uhurit

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 07:00:42 PM »
It's a sore point for me: I've purchased over the last 3-4 years  about 20 CDR's from an ambient label  by the same artist who had used CDR's only; all of them have turned defective and thus totally useless. Which, strangely enough, isn't such a bad thing: I don't even like the bastard any more; and what I somewhat like has been re-issued by an Eastern European label at 2/3 of the price.

Ekstasis

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »
Most people use the most cheap media you can find, even blank cdrs with no print etc...
"Taiyo Yuden" have a 100 year guarantee though :)

Brian Bieniowski

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 07:34:07 PM »
I have had mixed success with the CDR.  I've had a few "go bad" over the years, and it's hard to pinpoint why.  Could be the variant temperatures/humidity in my home, could have been my CD player, could have been defective discs.  They were mostly older discs pre-2002.  Lots of other CDRs I've owned (like those from DataObscura, for example) work beautifully, never had a problem.

Still, there's something to be said for the traditional plain ol' CDI've owned hundreds and hundreds of them and have never had a problem, ever.  They always work, no matter where I play them, and even when mistakenly scratched/dropped or mistreated.  I stopped buying CDRs about three years ago, with very few exceptions here and there, and sold the ones I had that I could live without (most).  I don't miss 'emif anything, it makes those unstoppable ambient release schedules a little easier to take. ;)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 07:37:30 PM by Brian Bieniowski »

drone on

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 10:45:24 PM »
I've used Maxell CDR-Pro and Maxell "Cool Colors" discs for years with no problems.  From what I understand, CDR's that have had sticker labels placed on them have the most problems with disc rot.  What I do nowadays when I buy releases on CDR is back them up with one of my Maxell discs just in case there's a problem later.  I used to be totally anti-CDR until I realized I'd miss out on a lot of great music.  So I recommend backing them up to your computer or burning a backup disc as I mentioned.  There was a period of time (in the early 2000's) that I had problems with CDR's, and all the problems were from two artists who I bought music from directly.  I believe it was a combination of poor/cheap media and sticky labels.  I can say TDK is one of the brands one of them used and therefore I AVOID them completely.  It's also not just the brand of media, it's how fast the music is being burned to disc.  If you're doing 52K it's too fast and you're going to get clicks.  I use a Dell computer with a program called Sonic Record Now and it takes about 4 min. to burn a disc.  Never had a problem with the CDR's I've burned. 

Seren

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 07:07:03 AM »
I've not had a problem with either CD or CDr going bad, but then I don't play all my music all the time so there could be some lurking somewhere.
I use TDK for storing my own music in physical form but don't use sticky labels on anything. Had no problem there yet - but everything is on hardrive if I do....

jim brenholts

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2008, 04:08:19 PM »

One of my bad discs has been replaced by the musician.  The other disc is apparently not replaceable as the disc is out of print (Michael J Harris: Blind Cinema).  If anyone can give or sell me a copy of the latter I would appreciate it.  I can email you a picture of me holding the disc and cover for proof.

http://zzzone.net
have you asked michael to replace the disc? if he has extra copies he would probably do so - or maybe even copy it for you. he is a pretty nice guy and definitely approachable. he posts here occasionally.
all the best and God bless
jim
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Celer

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2008, 03:48:46 PM »
We've used Taiyo Yuden CDRs for every single one of our handmade releases, up to this point. We also have upcoming releases planned on just as many CDR labels as CD labels. If something is defective, or becomes defective, for our own self-releases on CDR, they can be replaced. If something becomes defective on a label, we'd expect them to replace it.

To me the whole CD vs. CDR argument gets lost in pithy-ness at a certain point. It reminds me of the BluRay vs. DVD argument. After a while, who cares really. What really matters is the release. Anybody can burn a CDR of music, fold a piece of paper around it, and try to sell it.

That doesn't make it special, or unique.

Some of the best albums I own have the most simple, self-made artwork (if any). Also, some of the worst albums I've ever heard have been the same.

Beyonce's CD's may be perfect, and look amazing, but million dollar printing and solid gold CDs don't mean anything if the music is horrible anyway.

There are great things everywhere, despite generational formats.

zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 05:12:40 AM »
No.

I've been trying to figure out how to contact Mr. Harris.  I searched the forum using keyword "Harris" and came up empty except for my posts.

Mr. Harris' website is not functional.

If you have info on how to contact him, let me know.

Aucourant who published his CDs is also working on the problem for me.

Thanks for all the great comments and info.

jim brenholts

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 04:53:44 PM »
i sent matt an email yesterday and now i cannot find him. his website was working but google does not find it now.
all the best and God bless
jim
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jim brenholts

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 05:54:37 PM »
listening to this disc as i type. it is fairly outstanding!
(check my review at http://www.ambientvisions.com/2252001.htm)
all the best and God bless
jim
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ffcal

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2008, 12:23:45 AM »
While I prefer CDs to CDRs, some limited releases (eg, the recent Adam Pacione reissue) are only available in CDR format.  I'd rather not miss the opportunity to hear something I think I'd enjoy, on account of the format.  I've even bought cassettes in the past year of artists such as Machinefabreik and A.K. Caminiti of Barn Owl.

Forrest