Author Topic: CD-R Deterioration  (Read 26966 times)

APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 11:17:45 AM »
Back in the joint running of Databloem and Dataobscura we used sticky labels on taiyo yuden disks for the Dataobscura releases. I did find them a problem occasionally, particularly in some car players where there is a narrow slot the disk goes in. Maybe that design is especially sensitive to thickness.

Since the separation a year ago of Databloem and Dataobscura, all Dataobscura releases (including the early ones) have on-disk printing with no sticky labels.  Thought I'd mention that.


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Bill Binkelman

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 02:39:42 PM »
I have a lot of CdRs in my collection and unfortunately I have discovered that many of them are now unplayable: Vir Unis "Lumen"; a couple Saul Stokes (those in the wooden boxes); James Johnson "Lost at Dunn's Lake", "Unity", "Surrender", "Minimum", "Journeys"; a bunch of Dark Duck titles; a mountain of Mathias Grassow titles. My discs are stocked in a safe place - no humidity at all - some of them have the paper label, some don't. I've tried to get the replacement discs from Saul, but he replied that the masters are gone lost.
I've always replaced all the defective Umbra and Penumbra discs, so I'd like to get replacement discs when I need them, but in many cases this seems impossible.

Damn...based on what some folks wrote, I just tried playing my copy of Lost at Dunn's Lake, an album I just LOVE, and it is, indeed, as the saying goes "Tits up." Sounds all scratchy and stuff.

Okay, since so many here are smarter than me when it comes to techno-babble, what the hell causes this? Cause I have some other CD-Rs from farther back that are still fine. Am I going to have go through all my older CD-Rs and quick copy them and do that every 5 years to be sure I always have a good copy?

Dammit...anyone know if this album is available as a digital download?

APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 03:04:04 PM »
The cause of bad cdr's is, I believe, simply a chemical breakdown caused by exposure to air/radiation/heat. It happens are varying rates, but presumably faster with cheaper blank cdr's. Its fairly unpredictable. Of course, the technology has improved over the years, so even cheaper ones are now better than they were 10 years ago. People/companies are naturally concerned with getting something with archival quality.

And don't forget that some cdr's are just bad to begin with ... production errors that get through the quality check. I used to especially find this with memorex brand ... they were rubbish.

I think hard disks last so well because they are a sealed/unexposed unit. Just don't knock them around though :)

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2008, 03:20:51 PM »
There are several things that seem to have a correlation to problems with the lifespan of burned CDRs.

First, poor quality media.  I think some artists and labels, faced with buying CDR media in large quantities for a new release, make the decision to save $30 or $50 on media costs, with the result that a much higher number of copies have gone bad after 5 or 10 years.

Second, stick-on disc labels.  There's no dispute that the labels cause problems for slot-load CD players, like in many car players and some laptops (like my Apple Powerbook) due to increasing the effective thickness of the disc.  Also, slightly off-center labels create rotational instability (think of your washing machine going out of balance in the spin cycle) and so the discs are more likely to have other problems in playback.  I've also heard reports of a sort of "rot" happening on sticker-label discs, though I've heard of this so rarely that I don't know if it's a real thing.

I had three things in mind when I started typing this and have already forgotten what the third thing was...
 
 ???
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einstein36

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2008, 04:16:21 PM »
hahahaha...not to berate you or anything, but damn....sucks getting old doesn't it??:) hahahaha
and yes, I am turning the big 40 next year......oh man....


There are several things that seem to have a correlation to problems with the lifespan of burned CDRs.

First, poor quality media.  I think some artists and labels, faced with buying CDR media in large quantities for a new release, make the decision to save $30 or $50 on media costs, with the result that a much higher number of copies have gone bad after 5 or 10 years.

Second, stick-on disc labels.  There's no dispute that the labels cause problems for slot-load CD players, like in many car players and some laptops (like my Apple Powerbook) due to increasing the effective thickness of the disc.  Also, slightly off-center labels create rotational instability (think of your washing machine going out of balance in the spin cycle) and so the discs are more likely to have other problems in playback.  I've also heard reports of a sort of "rot" happening on sticker-label discs, though I've heard of this so rarely that I don't know if it's a real thing.

I had three things in mind when I started typing this and have already forgotten what the third thing was...
 
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zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2009, 10:51:14 AM »
In my further ripping adventures, I ran across another CD-R that has no visible scratches, yet refuses to rip or play:

Robert Scott Thompson - Blue Day

It appears to have a paper label on it.  The plastic has turned a bright yellow color.

The CD-R problems totally outnumber the CDA problems so far (5:1 or so)

I've emailed Aucourant about a replacement.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 11:04:05 AM by jimzzzak »

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2009, 11:42:15 AM »
Dang.

Two clinkers in one day.

The latest is a previously unopened CDDA:

Amir Baghiri - Ghazal

The 2 last tracks have multiple errors.

APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2009, 12:29:12 PM »
Jim
what exactly do you mean by 'multiple errors" ?
and does that mean the tracks don't play ?
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zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2009, 01:18:29 PM »
I use dBpoweramp to rip.  It uses the Accuraterip database and C1 error reporting from the CD/DVD-ROM among other things to produce a precise copy of the music files.

If it hits unreadable errors, it reports them as frame errors and it rereads them repeatedly at reduced speed until the data is obtained or not.

The Baghiri disc (brand new, never played) had like 700 errors in the last track with no visible scratches.  It slowed down more and more to read the errors but never could.  I canceled the rip.

The Robert Scott Thompson disc was unplayable and unrippable.

I placed the Baghiri disc in my crappy home stereo CD player, and it seemed fine.

My "beef": I am unable to archive and stream these unrippable songs through my new system that is designed to replace CDs.

It may be debatable if that is a legitimate problem or not, but CDs may be going the way of vinyl because of their susceptibility to damage/poor manufacturing and because it is much "handier" to be able to dial up whatever music than to physically get a CD, put it in the player, and change it out at the end.

Squeezebox (my music server) has allowed me to rediscover so much of my music because basically it's playing all the time now...without having to change CDs or change out a CD changer.

http://www.slimdevices.com

I now have 37,000+ songs in .flac format on the hard drive of my music server.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 02:17:50 PM by jimzzzak »

APK

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2009, 05:08:25 PM »
That Squeezebox is very neat !   8)
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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2009, 05:25:41 PM »
Squeezebox is actually a family of players which are linked by Wi-Fi to the server computer.

http://www.slimdevices.com/pi_overview.html

There is a high end receiver (Transporter) and low-end (Boom).

I have one Duet and one Boom, and I plan on more.

You can see my Boom review here:

http://www.epinions.com/review/Sqeezebox_Boom_epi/content_455811108484

LNerell

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2009, 11:52:34 AM »
I use dBpoweramp to rip.  It uses the Accuraterip database and C1 error reporting from the CD/DVD-ROM among other things to produce a precise copy of the music files. . . . . I placed the Baghiri disc in my crappy home stereo CD player, and it seemed fine.

Do you have access to another CD/DVD-ROM that can rip your discs? I'm wondering if you current DVDrom is the problem and not the discs themselves, especially if they play fine in your regular CD player. If the laser is going bad you would probably get lots of errors, using a different DVDrom device to rip with would probably eliminate one or the other.
Take care.

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zzzone.net

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2009, 11:57:50 AM »
I use dBpoweramp to rip.  It uses the Accuraterip database and C1 error reporting from the CD/DVD-ROM among other things to produce a precise copy of the music files. . . . . I placed the Baghiri disc in my crappy home stereo CD player, and it seemed fine.

Do you have access to another CD/DVD-ROM that can rip your discs? I'm wondering if you current DVDrom is the problem and not the discs themselves, especially if they play fine in your regular CD player. If the laser is going bad you would probably get lots of errors, using a different DVDrom device to rip with would probably eliminate one or the other.

Thanks for your reply. 

I am using a brand new computer with 2 drives.  Both get the same errors.  And it's not on all discs.  I'm getting the errors on probably 5-10% at most.  In many cases the software will correct the problem by reading and rereading until it acquires the "data"; however, in some cases, the data just is not there anymore.

I suspect the CD player does okay by interpolating.  I have very cheap hi-fi equipment.

However, as I mentioned, a couple of discs are totally unplayable even on the CD player: the Matthew J Harris "Blind Cinema" and the Robert Scott Thompson - "Blue Day" discs.  Both are CD-Rs with clear deterioration.

Unfortunately as I rip my large collection of CD-Rs by Mathias Grassow, I am getting quite a few errors.  Dang again.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 03:24:17 PM by jimzzzak »

ambient789

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2009, 10:06:06 PM »
Hi,

I have had a few problems with CD-R's too. When Lloyd Barde was known as Backroads Music, he replaced a couple of Oophoi CD-R's that went bad for free. When James Johnson was involved in Atmoworks, he replaced, for free, a couple of CD-R's I had got from him.

I seem to remember the Oophoi discs I had did have a paper label on them. For the disc to become unbalanced in the player might be a possibility, but I'm not having issues now.

I can't guess what the problem was with James' discs.

Life is strange.

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2009, 01:12:18 PM »
  I have been checking some of the CD-R titles in my collection that have been mentioned in this thread and have been lucky so far but still have many more to check. Unfortunately my copy of "Lumina" by Vir Unis is toast. Too bad! 
  The last time I was in California during the late summer of 2007 I talked with Lloyd Barde and he made it pretty clear that he didn't really care for CD-R releases. Probably because of the return and replacement hassles. I think I will check the Saul Stokes wooden box releases now. It would a real shame to lose those!
Peace, Kirk

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2009, 08:53:08 AM »
The latest title with fairly extensive errors is a CDDA title which was new: Robert Rich - Calling Down the Sky.  As on most CDs, the error-prone tracks are the last two.

It had about 130 errors on it.  As it take 5-30 secs for each to be re-read, it will be sometime before I find out if the error-correction process was successful.

I'm sure it will play fine in a CD player.

Several of Mathias Grassow's CD-Rs were so error-prone on the last track or two, I had to use an alternative ripper that apparently ignores errors and just plows through.  While those rips will not reflect what Mr. Grassow intended exactly, at least they can be accomplished.

The reason I am finding so many of these errors is that I am systematically going through my entire collection which consists of approximately 15,000 CDs.  The overall problem rate is actually fairly low.

As I am ripping the tracks to .flac, I am also converting the files to .mp3 for use on my stream at http://zzzone.net.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 09:03:42 AM by jimzzzak »

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2009, 07:57:58 AM »
So I ran into a CD-R with a paper label that had turned yellow and the disc was unplayable and unrippable.

I probably purchased the disc 6-8 years ago.  I do not have a receipt.

I approached the CD label about replacing the disc...a direct swap even - bad disc for good disc.

The label stated that they their policy was to NOT replace any discs except those that were purchased directly from the label.  They stated that I should seek replacement from the vendor from whom I purchased the disc; that vendor could purchase a replacement from the label at cost.  The implication being that I would pay AGAIN for the privilege of having the CD.

This comes despite the fact that I link in three places to the label on my site, and I legally stream the label's music (royalties are paid) which hopefully promotes the label.  Also I have no ads on my site to make money off the label's music.

Geez Louise!  What kind of malarkey is this?

How much can it cost to send me a replacement disc in exchange for a defective disc?  How do I exchange the disc with the third-party vendor when I obviously do not have a receipt from 6-8 years ago?

Talk about customer and fan UN-friendly!

I just needed to vent.

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2009, 08:30:29 AM »
The latest problem child is a conventional CD:

Blood Box - The Iron Dream

The last track (as usual) had nearly 3000 errors that prevented ripping it.

This CD was brand new and in cellophane.

To reiterate the problem: when tracks appear like this, I cannot rip them to the exact equivalent lossless state for future listening.   

Reason: for whatever reason, the disc does not contain the original music information.

ambient789

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2009, 08:42:14 PM »
Jim,

In some cases, would it be feasible for you to pop the CD-R or CD into your CD Player, transfer the tracks to a cassette, and then transfer the tracks again into your computer system? I have heard that there are USB enabled cassette decks out there, just a couple of brands are available (sorry I can't remember which).

It's an extra step, but you might be able to get more information for your file conversions, and maybe get a bit more out of your music investment.

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Re: CD-R Deterioration
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2009, 04:43:18 AM »
Anther CD-R with a paper label with many problems, brand new out of the wrapper:

Matthew J Harris - The Cure May Never Come

http://www.discogs.com/Matthew-J-Harris-The-Cure-May-Never-Come/release/1555332

It has 99 short tracks, all untitled.  It's dated 2002.

The last 50 tracks or so have multiple errors each, many of which are not correctable.

What a shame about these new discs.

I heard from Mr. Harris, likely as a result of this thread.  His Blind Cinema disc is set for a re-release.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 04:45:49 AM by jimzzzak »