Author Topic: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?  (Read 9049 times)

Ekstasis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« on: December 19, 2008, 03:26:37 PM »
Yes, I have been watching some of Aleksandr Sokurov's films this week, the music in them is very good, it is classical music like nocturnes but it has been slowed down and reverb have been added. It all produce a more dreamlike and ambient sounding music. I wonder is there any artist that does this ? That does either compose own music or remix music...

An example from "Elegy of a Voyage" 108 mb/8 minutes

http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=2fym2hjgs3b

Altus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 300
    • View Profile
    • Altus - aural journeys for the mind's eye
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 08:14:34 PM »
Your description reminds me of Kit Watkins' release "Unraveled"
http://earthmantra.com/release-detail.php?id=52
Mike Carss -- Altus : aural journeys for the mind's eye
www.altusmusic.ca

Ekstasis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 08:24:31 PM »
Your description reminds me of Kit Watkins' release "Unraveled"
http://earthmantra.com/release-detail.php?id=52


Yeah, I have this album (among many other Witkins albums)
Maybe you did misunderstand me, cause I hear no classical music in this, this is pure ambient music to me.
I hear no piano or anything. What I want is minimalistic classical music which is very slow and mixed with ambience.

The music in the in the video clip above is for instance "moonlight sonanta" but remixed...it is slowed down and effects are added to make it more atmospheric and dreamy...

Undershadow

  • Guest
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2008, 12:32:06 AM »
A lot darker than what’s in the film clip, and perhaps not quite what the doctor ordered, but the description of methodology reminds me of an artist who goes by the name of Procer Veneficus. Extremely sad and desolate pieces created using classical music clips stretched and smeared into foggy ambience.

Clip here, included not for the video material, but because it offers an extended track sample:


From the album Deathwanderings: http://www.procerveneficus.com/deathwanderings.html



Another clip:

From the album Saltwater and Glassmoon: http://www.procerveneficus.com/saltwater.html



http://www.newagedawn.co.uk/sareleases.html

Undershadow

  • Guest
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 09:35:51 AM »
Nearly forgot... Andrew Deutsch has done some great work using the same methodology, notably Loops Over Land. A favourite of 'post-classical' (or maybe faux-classical) ambient. Apparently LOL was a major influence on Milieu's Beyond the Sea Lies the Stars - another work using loops harvested from classical records as source sounds.



http://www.divinefrequency.com/DivF05.html
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 10:05:56 AM by Undershadow »

Ekstasis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 11:31:05 AM »
A lot darker than what’s in the film clip, and perhaps not quite what the doctor ordered, but the description of methodology reminds me of an artist who goes by the name of Procer Veneficus. Extremely sad and desolate pieces created using classical music clips stretched and smeared into foggy ambience.

Clip here, included not for the video material, but because it offers an extended track sample: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0KgE0Zd5h9E

From the album Deathwanderings: http://www.procerveneficus.com/deathwanderings.html



Another clip: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nLg8oQyRBWw
From the album Saltwater and Glassmoon: http://www.procerveneficus.com/saltwater.html



http://www.newagedawn.co.uk/sareleases.html



Actually it is a good recommendation, I am familiar with Procer Veneficus, and I like most of his albums (even the black metal albums).  I had not heard Saltwater and Glassmoon before, but I have been listening to it twice today. It is a very good album indeed, the amazing artwork along with the album title gives such an dreamy atmosphere, which does make my mouth water.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 11:43:31 AM by Immersion »

Ekstasis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2008, 11:31:48 AM »
Nearly forgot... Andrew Deutsch has done some great work using the same methodology, notably Loops Over Land. A favourite of 'post-classical' (or maybe faux-classical) ambient. Apparently LOL was a major influence on Milieu's Beyond the Sea Lies the Stars - another work using loops harvested from classical records as source sounds.



http://www.divinefrequency.com/DivF05.html


Thanks, I will check it out.

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2008, 04:48:02 PM »
A lot darker than what’s in the film clip, and perhaps not quite what the doctor ordered, but the description of methodology reminds me of an artist who goes by the name of Procer Veneficus. Extremely sad and desolate pieces created using classical music clips stretched and smeared into foggy ambience.




I don't quite know how I feel about this music.  I thought at first that it was quite beautiful, but when I realised that it was chopin's nocturne no.1 in Bb minor, then my feelings grew a bit more complex.  I'm not saying that I don't like it, and I'm interested in other's thoughts on this.  I would have assumed that contemporary classical music with ambient leanings was newly composed music, and not taking older music.  Not to say that this is not a valid artistic act. 

It certainly is an interesting act though-  taking something from the past, and re-interpreting it in such a way.  I think once we get past the notion that an artist needs to have acted in a musical or compositional way, then we can listen to it with more open ears.  People have done this in the past with *very* varying rates of artistic success.  Sometimes it comes off as music appreciation, rather than musical composition.

what do other people think?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 04:54:46 PM by deepspace »
Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

APK

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • View Profile
    • DataObscura
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2008, 05:15:09 PM »
I'm only hearing the youtube version, and I'd have to say it has drama when tied to the images. But considered musically its seriously in need of renovation.

So many of these re-interpetations/re-samplings are initially "fascinating", but not something one comes back to with any degree of enthusiasm.

Fascination is so often momentary, like visceral shock.
But not a lasting value.

(and if you find out it was someone else's work merely fed through a simple effects chain, it can easily appear much less fascinating, and less artistic/individual/valuable)

APK

www.dataobscura.com
www.dataobscura.com/apk
The Circular Ruins / Lammergeyer / Nunc Stans

Ekstasis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 06:08:27 PM »
Of course I can understand your opinions regarding PV , and the objective value of the art is not as high as original own-composed music, but every artist is still allowed and free to do and create whatever he desire without compromise...

To remix old classical in this fashion is for me a very interesting concept..but I can understand that people who find it totally disrespectful to artist who created the music.

But if you think he can not make own music, have a listen to his album "Lunar Transit" which at least from what I know/understand is all own-composed music on a high level, deep nocturnal ambient. His sound design is quite simple though..but I am sure it will improve with time..he is still quite young from what I know, probably not more then 21 years old.




michael sandler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008, 07:11:53 PM »
"9 Beet Stretch" is Beethoven's 9th symphony stretched to 24 hours. It is indeed like a dream, but a strange one! It streams continuously at:
www.park.nl/park_cms/public/index.php?thisarticle=118

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008, 11:09:32 PM »
"9 Beet Stretch" is Beethoven's 9th symphony stretched to 24 hours. It is indeed like a dream, but a strange one! It streams continuously at:
www.park.nl/park_cms/public/index.php?thisarticle=118

Ok, now that has me very interested.  Listening now.
Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2008, 12:16:39 AM »
The Beethovens 9th is blowing my mind.  For some reason though, i can't get it to stream for more than about 30 secs at a time.  I've tried winamp, foobar etc.  Maybe it's the server.  anyone have more luck?

I love how it sits on one chord, and then slowly becomes dissonant as it moves to the next chord-  the hairs on the back of my neck were standing up when i first heard it.   The chords feel gigantic.  It reminds me of the last act of Tristan and Isolde by Wagner, except in slow motion.  Wow.  I feel like I've heard something new.  I'm going to write something.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 12:25:04 AM by deepspace »
Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

Undershadow

  • Guest
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2008, 02:19:47 AM »
I seem to be at odds with a number opinions and/or assumptions expressed in this thread, although we obviously agree that PV's music has some sort of merit.

Quote
Of course I can understand your opinions regarding PV,

I can't really understand the rather sniffy reactions, TBH. The idea of people using existing recorded music as a source for creating other compositions has been around nearly a century by now. Whether we call it turntablism, bricolage, recontextualisation, or appropriation, the idea that there's anything dubious about it seems based on a somewhat outmoded Romanticist notion of The Author, and his/her Deep Inner Expression as The Originator of a musical text etc etc...

Quote
and the objective value of the art is not as high as original own-composed music,


Firstly, the idea that there is such a thing as 'objective value' in relation to Art is problematic. Even if it were not, and it were accepted, for that sake of argument, that there are some sort of consensual norms of value, the idea that the provenance (compositional source) of a piece of music determines its relative merit is contentious. Does knowledge of what/who generated a piece of music tarnish it somehow? (And does ignorance thus allow bliss that would be removed by such knowledge?)
Anyway, how about considering the effect rather than the provenance of an artwork as a criterion of worth?

Quote
but every artist is still allowed and free to do and create whatever he desire without compromise...

I don't agree with this either - though it's not really salient to the debate. I think there are in fact restrictions on artistic freedom of various types, whether they be aesthetic or legal.

Quote
To remix old classical in this fashion is for me a very interesting concept..but I can understand that people who find it totally disrespectful to artist who created the music.

I can't. I don't believe in all this business about respect - it comes from the old-fashioned notion of The Great Classical Canon, and the received wisdom that the works in this canon are somehow untouchable. I don't find anything particularly disrespectful in taking something from what is essentially a great pool of resources and recontextualising it into something else with a completeley different audience and effect (and affect) in mind.

There you go. All opinions represented here are, or course, not my own, but appropriated from Bluff Your Way Through Postmodernism [grin]

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2008, 02:47:16 AM »
I seem to be at odds with a number opinions and/or assumptions expressed in this thread, although we obviously agree that PV's music has some sort of merit.

Quote
Of course I can understand your opinions regarding PV,

I can't really understand the rather sniffy reactions, TBH. The idea of people using existing recorded music as a source for creating other compositions has been around nearly a century by now. Whether we call it turntablism, bricolage, recontextualisation, or appropriation, the idea that there's anything dubious about it seems based on a somewhat outmoded Romanticist notion of The Author, and his/her Deep Inner Expression as The Originator of a musical text etc etc...



The poor old Romantic gets such a beating by the post-modern thinkers.  However, we're still in a society that is influenced by Romanticism in quite a big way, and I don't even think that it's because parts of society aren't as 'enlightened' as the more current thinkers, but because there are parts of Romanticism that are fundamentally attached to the idea of the individual in western society, right now.  And a lot of composers, not just unconsciously, hold on a lot of these ideologies, so they have strong feelings about notions of 'worth' and 'deep inner expression' regardless of what you say.  You can intellectually wish that they would STOP these seemingly outmoded ideologies, but they probably won't.  :)  I could pretend that I didn't believe them (and I have), and that I wasn't expressing something deep inside me, but If I look deep inside myself, I actually believe that I am.  It may not hold any value according to someone elses criteria, but to me it does.  And if that's ok by my own definition of 'worth', then it's worth something to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm aware of the problems of Romanticism- I don't believe in the 'truth', and I think Post-modernism has uncovered a lot of the negatives in Romanticism. 
So, in short, I agree with pretty much everything you said Undershadow, and I think your comments on the elitist western canon of music, and the problems of the author, are very true and perceptive.  But as I get older, I feel myself starting to seperate what I 'wish' (everything you pointed out) from what I think is (a slightly more, as you say, sniffy ideological system) is actually at work (mind you, I'm speaking some pretty Western ideologies here).   I value innovation in music, but some fundamental aspects, like Romanticism, I think, are here to stay because of their attachment to the way Western culture is structured. 







« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 02:50:16 AM by deepspace »
Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

Undershadow

  • Guest
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2008, 03:01:28 AM »
I actually agree with quite a bit of what you say there, Mirko. Aspects of Postmodernist and Romanticist paradigms can co-exist. I hope it was clear that - though I do agree with some of what I represented in my post - my response was partly in the clothing of Devil's Advocate/Agent Provocateur. But, yes, the construct of the Untouchability of the Classical Canon (much of which is not especially enjoyable anyway) is not something I will ever buy into.
The basic point I'd like to underline (avoiding getting us further sidetracked into a debate about Romanticism vs. Postmodernism vs. Pre-Socraticism [grin]) is that existing musical material is up for grabs for deployment as source material, and that it's what is done with the source material in terms of outcome and its effect on the listener that should be the basis for evaluation, rather than its sourcing and processing.

ffcal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2008, 03:05:43 AM »
I have mixed feelings about the use of classical samples.  Sometimes it can be done effectively, but it can also be a very lazy way to compose.  Probably the worse use of a classical sample I can remember was Shuttle 358's crude misappropriation of part of Harold Budd's 1st Obscure Records album on "Understanding Wildlife."  Ugh.

Forrest

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2008, 05:27:25 AM »
.... is that existing musical material is up for grabs for deployment as source material, and that it's what is done with the source material in terms of outcome and its effect on the listener that should be the basis for evaluation, rather than its sourcing and processing.

outcome and effect > sourcing and processing any day.  I agree wholeheartedly.
Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

deepspace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
    • deepspace home page
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2008, 05:37:42 AM »
I have mixed feelings about the use of classical samples.  Sometimes it can be done effectively, but it can also be a very lazy way to compose.  Probably the worse use of a classical sample I can remember was Shuttle 358's crude misappropriation of part of Harold Budd's 1st Obscure Records album on "Understanding Wildlife."  Ugh.

Forrest

Absolutely.  Who can forget the use of gregorian chants in Enigma....  God knows I try.  It's an easy way to get some pseudo-depth in your music. 
I was thinking about why I felt differently about the Procer Veneficus compared with the "9 Beet Stretch" stretched-out Beethoven piece.  The first used chopin, but left artistic fingerprints....the sound itself was changed, and the artists identity was placed ontop of it: the name, the images etc.  I feel it was revisionist.

Whereas, Leif Inge, the artist who came up with the "9 Beet Stretch" idea, left the identity of the piece intact- it wasn't given another name, and the artist was working in an invisible sense.  I think I felt like the artist allowed a closer glimpse of the original, as opposed to a revisionist approach.

That aside, I think musicians are attracted to the idea of sampling the orchestra, and classical instruments due to attractive sounds and playing of classical musicians.  Nothing fills out the spectrum analyser like a beautiful orchestral sample.  I've got some nice samples that I use for that very reason, just to fatten the sound up.




Listen to deepspace here: http://deepspacehome.com

orczy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
    • ascending and descending
Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2008, 05:48:34 AM »
In terms of new copmpositions I would think Roger Eno "The Flatlands" would be an example of classical ambient, or even his "Voices" for slow piano based material. The album he did with Brian using music by Hans Frederick Michellson is a wonderful example of classical music being treated in an ambient way.

I am very uncertain about samples as a basis for compositions. While it can be effective, for me, it needs to be source material that doesn't rely on it's being able to being recognised (sorry about the language). I don't mind someone mining their records for sounds, but to treat a recognisable piece, melody, chord what have you, is lazy and to have the piece trading on the recognition of the sample is a bit dodgy. But I'm a romantic........ ;)