Author Topic: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?  (Read 9439 times)

deepspace

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2008, 06:05:52 AM »
Stars of the Lid are doing some interesting things re: contemporary classical/ambient music right now.  And I know it may be very in vogue with the cafe set, to do covers of Arvo Part etc, but when I heard them doing a cover of Part's Fratres, it seemed hauntingly correct, like they've been on a path that was always about to collide with New Consonance, in a way that you could never have expected.  When I heard that I actually thought "Who knew...!"

I'll tell you what though, I'm still listening to this 24 hour Beethoven thing, and it's still giving me goosebumps.  As a person who writes and records ambient music, I get a chilling sense of ...existentialism when I tune in to the piece, and go "what is this haunting ambient music" and remember that it's Beethoven's 9th....It just gives me the tingles, and a sense that ambient music explores what is already in all music- something that has been there all along- we've just tuned further in, we've turned up the microscope....
The minimalists looked at the fragments and the process but the ambient musicians are going further, into the chord itself, where the consonance and dissonance drift together more freely.

A bit like that Gas 095 video, the one done with those Nasa images, that zooms all the way out, then all the way into the micro-universe.

If you zoom out from Structures from Silence, it's actually "Dancing on the Ceiling" by Lionel Richie. :)

 


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Ekstasis

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2008, 11:48:55 AM »
I seem to be at odds with a number opinions and/or assumptions expressed in this thread, although we obviously agree that PV's music has some sort of merit.

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Of course I can understand your opinions regarding PV,

I can't really understand the rather sniffy reactions, TBH. The idea of people using existing recorded music as a source for creating other compositions has been around nearly a century by now. Whether we call it turntablism, bricolage, recontextualisation, or appropriation, the idea that there's anything dubious about it seems based on a somewhat outmoded Romanticist notion of The Author, and his/her Deep Inner Expression as The Originator of a musical text etc etc...

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and the objective value of the art is not as high as original own-composed music,


Firstly, the idea that there is such a thing as 'objective value' in relation to Art is problematic. Even if it were not, and it were accepted, for that sake of argument, that there are some sort of consensual norms of value, the idea that the provenance (compositional source) of a piece of music determines its relative merit is contentious. Does knowledge of what/who generated a piece of music tarnish it somehow? (And does ignorance thus allow bliss that would be removed by such knowledge?)
Anyway, how about considering the effect rather than the provenance of an artwork as a criterion of worth?

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but every artist is still allowed and free to do and create whatever he desire without compromise...

I don't agree with this either - though it's not really salient to the debate. I think there are in fact restrictions on artistic freedom of various types, whether they be aesthetic or legal.

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To remix old classical in this fashion is for me a very interesting concept..but I can understand that people who find it totally disrespectful to artist who created the music.

I can't. I don't believe in all this business about respect - it comes from the old-fashioned notion of The Great Classical Canon, and the received wisdom that the works in this canon are somehow untouchable. I don't find anything particularly disrespectful in taking something from what is essentially a great pool of resources and recontextualising it into something else with a completeley different audience and effect (and affect) in mind.

There you go. All opinions represented here are, or course, not my own, but appropriated from Bluff Your Way Through Postmodernism [grin]

Yeah talking about objectivity in music which is an subjective experience might be meaningless.
The "experience" alone will never be objective however the way we value music I think can hold an objective value.  Copied music has always existed, but in an objective context the copied is never as highly regarded as the original/the creator, it is the creators that will get their way into the history books...not the one who copy and steal ideas... However in reality we all copy or inspire each other more or less..it is quite unavoidable since we all listen to music, we get inspired more or less either consciously or unconsciously. What really matter is the subjective experience, and your own artistic freedom to express your consciousness.

Sure the music is living in a time of "progress", the aim for most artists is to some how take the music "forward" to new ground... I think that this period of progress is necessary..but it will also come to an end sooner or later...
In future the main driving force might not be creativity and to bring music "forward".. I am very sure we will reach our limit within our own imagination. However true music which is a mirror of the consciousness I think never can be old...it is timeless...

Regarding objectivity in the music, the musical experience is an subjective experience, and I have a huge respect for the subjective experience, it is the only thing that truly holds a value (within yourself).
Of course if an artist such as PV copy all music and remix, I will of course not give him as an artist all the credit for the music, without chopin (in deathwanderings) his music would not be what it is. The basic condition for the existence of "deathwanderings" is chopins work, without him it would not exist in the same shape & form.  My point is we shall not forget the creators/inventors, it is both ignorant and disrespectful.

I do not understand when you say that an artist do not have true freedom...we all have true freedom within our own conditions... for me only your own imagination and motivation/will  is what set the limits. But of course their might be circumstances in the external which will restrict your freedom, such as the financial or physical, lack of equipment needed to express the music,  of course the biological might be an limitation as well...we all are not born perfect.

deepspace

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 02:34:43 PM »

I am very uncertain about samples as a basis for compositions. While it can be effective, for me, it needs to be source material that doesn't rely on it's being able to being recognised (sorry about the language). I don't mind someone mining their records for sounds, but to treat a recognisable piece, melody, chord what have you, is lazy and to have the piece trading on the recognition of the sample is a bit dodgy. But I'm a romantic........ ;)

Good point-  I think it depends what your intentions are-  and I prefer the use of like you say, invisible sampling that add to the texture, rather than the motives and themes of the piece.  Motivic sampling, where the sample featured as part of the hook of the song, came out of the freshness of the technology I think, where the relative new-ness of the act of using a prominent sample gave the song intertextuality and freshness.  I don't think that is still the case now: I think that firmly belongs to the 90's, in that permutation at least- and I get the general feel that people, and I would say, mainly composers and passionate listeners, now see it as a bit of a derivative act.

I like mutating the odd sample in programs like v-vocal, so they're unrecognisable and add some noise and air to the piece.  I took a violin rendition of a famous tchaikovsky melody, and warped it until it became a different melody, which i used as a subtheme in a piece called 'elevenward'.  That was fun.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 02:39:22 PM by deepspace »
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deepspace

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2008, 03:02:12 PM »
Maybe you've already heard of this, but it's a performance of a John Cage piece that is going to last 639 years. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1525792.stm

more info-great site:
http://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de/new/index.php?seite=dasprojekt&l=e

there's a piece that has sort of trumped it (even though i don't think it has the credibility of the former), called 'longplayer' which started on the year 2000, and will finish on the year 3000.  But judging by the fact that it's purely digital, I don't have complete faith in this project....not that any of us will ever know. I can't even get it to stream. :)

http://longplayer.org/

 these pieces really tap into a particular feeling for me.  They make me feel like a speck.  And for some reason, that creates a great sense of lightness and relief in me, for some reason.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 03:15:35 PM by deepspace »
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Altus

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2008, 05:19:35 PM »
Sorry for derailing this thread a little more, but I felt I should mention this.  If anyone is curious in dabbling with stretched audio, check out PaulStretch.  It creates beautifully smooth, extremely stretched audio... just like "9 Beet Stretch".

http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/
This is for PC, however I have seen a Mac version online somewhere.

Very fun program!   :D
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Stellar Auditorium

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2008, 06:22:35 PM »
I have mixed feelings about the use of classical samples.  Sometimes it can be done effectively, but it can also be a very lazy way to compose.  Probably the worse use of a classical sample I can remember was Shuttle 358's crude misappropriation of part of Harold Budd's 1st Obscure Records album on "Understanding Wildlife."  Ugh.

Forrest

I was thinking about why I felt differently about the Procer Veneficus compared with the "9 Beet Stretch" stretched-out Beethoven piece.  The first used chopin, but left artistic fingerprints....the sound itself was changed, and the artists identity was placed ontop of it: the name, the images etc.  I feel it was revisionist.

Whereas, Leif Inge, the artist who came up with the "9 Beet Stretch" idea, left the identity of the piece intact- it wasn't given another name, and the artist was working in an invisible sense.  I think I felt like the artist allowed a closer glimpse of the original, as opposed to a revisionist approach.

While I share your opinion concerning the identity of the work when subject to some kind of alteration and re-presentation, I believe Procer Veneficus is justified in a way since the music has been transformed up to a point of no recognition, to a point where the sampled material's character is diminished, and the character of the procession takes the lead, in a way. If it should be Procer Veneficus' Treatments of Chopin Pieces or Chopin Piecies by Procer Veneficus, that's left to the judgement of each artist, but what's important is that the original artist should always be mentioned. If that's the case, I personally don't have much of a problem. P.V. creates his music from a variety of sources as far as I know, including acoustic and electric guitars and treatment of found sound. That 24-hour Beethoven's 9th is amazing btw, great find!

« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 06:49:24 PM by Stellar Auditorium »

deepspace

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2008, 11:57:22 PM »
Sorry for derailing this thread a little more, but I felt I should mention this.  If anyone is curious in dabbling with stretched audio, check out PaulStretch.  It creates beautifully smooth, extremely stretched audio... just like "9 Beet Stretch".

http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/
This is for PC, however I have seen a Mac version online somewhere.

Very fun program!   :D


Awesome-  I was looking for the program that Leif used to stretch the beethoven piece, but to no avail, so thank for that!  I'm going to investigate a little further here.  Let the time stretching begin. 

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kawera

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Re: Dreamlike/ambient Classical Music ?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 10:39:54 AM »
Sorry for derailing this thread a little more, but I felt I should mention this.  If anyone is curious in dabbling with stretched audio, check out PaulStretch.  It creates beautifully smooth, extremely stretched audio... just like "9 Beet Stretch".

http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/
This is for PC, however I have seen a Mac version online somewhere.

Very fun program!   :D


 :o

Wow, just what I was looking for! Thanks for sharing!