Author Topic: 12K vs. U2  (Read 8330 times)

Mark Mushet

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12K vs. U2
« on: January 20, 2009, 01:47:25 PM »

mgriffin

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 01:56:37 PM »
I read about this matter over the weekend, following the series of messages on the ambient@hyperreal.org list on this subject.  I'm impressed with how Taylor handled it, and it's kind of amazing to see little old 12k referenced in major media outlets.  It's like seeing Hypnos on 60 Minutes or something!
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Mark Mushet

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 01:59:35 PM »
I read about this matter over the weekend, following the series of messages on the ambient@hyperreal.org list on this subject.  I'm impressed with how Taylor handled it, and it's kind of amazing to see little old 12k referenced in major media outlets.  It's like seeing Hypnos on 60 Minutes or something!

I hear P-Diddy's new CD looks an awful lot like Altara! ;)

deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 02:57:03 PM »
I'm thinking Hypnos contrives a similar controversy so we CAN get on 60 minutes! :)
Someone think of something controversial, quick! 


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jim brenholts

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 03:57:56 PM »
I'm thinking Hypnos contrives a similar controversy so we CAN get on 60 minutes! :)
Someone think of something controversial, quick! 



viridian sun covering a U2 song without permission is the easy spot.
all the best and God bless
jim
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mgriffin

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »
That's sort of the opposite of controversial.

Now, if U2 would do an uncredited ripoff of "Nervous Eclipse," resulting in me & Dave T getting notoriety plus big music checks, that would be cool.
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deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »
That's sort of the opposite of controversial.

Now, if U2 would do an uncredited ripoff of "Nervous Eclipse," resulting in me & Dave T getting notoriety plus big music checks, that would be cool.

And from then on, you become known as big MG(riff) and DizzyT.  The Hypnos name is changed to HIPnos, and gets some bling on it.
Furthermore, 'Amen' style beats are added to all existing hypnos releases.  Then, of course, U2 release their next album on the label to add a bit of spice to their new sound.
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mgriffin

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 06:00:10 PM »
There is plenty of bling in Hypnos already.  Obviously you haven't seen my grill.

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deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 06:11:24 PM »
There is plenty of bling in Hypnos already.  Obviously you haven't seen my grill.




OMG, you have an ear piercing!?
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Scott M2

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 08:21:10 PM »
There is plenty of bling in Hypnos already.  Obviously you haven't seen my grill.




Whoh Mike! Lena could sell your head for the big bucks to complement this guy:



http://anthropology.net/2007/06/01/damien-hirsts-diamond-encrusted-skull-jeweled-skulls-in-archaeology/

LNerell

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 11:20:28 AM »

Great promotion - excellent marketing.

who said controversy doesn't sell.

The only problem is the article says that the 12k CD was a limited edition that has already sold out.
Take care.

- Loren Nerell

mgriffin

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 11:23:13 AM »
Right, 12k isn't seeing any extra sales due to this.  Unless there were U2 fans just waiting to become 12k fans, who googled 12k and ended up buying a bunch of Shuttle358 or Goem or something.
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LNerell

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 09:28:00 AM »
I have to say I don't see why U2 is being singled out here. If anyone is to blame its the artist Hiroshi Sugimoto, after all he should know what his art is being used for. And if he worked personally with 12k on the cover then he really has no excuse except for the fact that he was probably offered lots of money for the rights to do the U2 version.
Take care.

- Loren Nerell

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 09:52:48 AM »
U2 certainly can't be expected to have known about the 12k album.  In fact, it might even be a stretch to suggest that U2 should have asked the photographer whether the photo had been used in any previous CD covers.  But certainly the photographer should have mentioned it, though he probably thought the two projects were of such vastly different scales, and targeted at such different audiences, that despite both being "CD covers" they were almost not the same thing at all.

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Mark Mushet

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 11:52:26 AM »
U2 certainly can't be expected to have known about the 12k album. But certainly the photographer should have mentioned it, though he probably thought the two projects were of such vastly different scales, and targeted at such different audiences, that despite both being "CD covers" they were almost not the same thing at all.

A repro license for a CD cover should include terms that prevent the image from being used on another CD cover in any event. Both Richard's CD and those of U2 are, broadly speaking, recordings of contemporary music and can easily be accessed through the same channels ie. CD stores or on-line outlets. If nothing else, there should be a simple courtesy shown. Haven't seen Richard address the license terms yet. I suspect they didn't come up in discussion.

deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 07:15:20 PM »
Loren and Mike,

I am in complete agreement with both of your statements.  And I'm glad you said that. 

I think the visual artist may have been the source of confusion here, not the musicians.  A lot of people may instantly privilege the more obscure artist over the stadium gods that U2 are, just out of an 'honour amongst thieves' ethos (for the lack of a better phrase).  But I'm glad that most of the arguments I have been seeing about this issue are sidestepping that, and trying to see things for the accident they might have been, and not instantly accusing the more well-known artist (like media might, just to get the reader's attention).

Another similar recent controversy was the Coldplay/Joe Satriani plagiarism issue:  http://defamer.com/5103189/joe-satriani-sues-coldplay-for-ownership-of-years-most-annoying-melody 

I'll be interested in people's opinions on this one.  My reaction took me a bit by surprise. 
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Mark Mushet

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 09:02:49 PM »
I think the visual artist may have been the source of confusion here, not the musicians. A lot of people may instantly privilege the more obscure artist over the stadium gods that U2 are, just out of an 'honour amongst thieves' ethos (for the lack of a better phrase).

Certainly the photographer or his agent needs to weigh in on this vis-a-vis licensing issues.

However, Richard's work was done in close collaboration with the Washington, DC museum exhibiting the photographer's work and is obviously closely related to the images, designed specifically to be heard in relation to the images. Sugimoto was aware of this. Therefore it is a more cohesive and collaborative work of art. So IMO, the use of the image on Richard's CD deserves the "privilege".

Nothing U2 can record will have that. If they weren't so busy managing property they might find the time to realize that music has changed a great deal since Boy came out and that if they want "gallery cool" to be associated with their music they need to work harder at it.

Now, where's my copy of "He's So Fine"? No, wait, I meant "My Sweet Lord"!

deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 12:48:14 AM »
Certainly the photographer or his agent needs to weigh in on this vis-a-vis licensing issues.

However, Richard's work was done in close collaboration with the Washington, DC museum exhibiting the photographer's work and is obviously closely related to the images, designed specifically to be heard in relation to the images. Sugimoto was aware of this. Therefore it is a more cohesive and collaborative work of art. So IMO, the use of the image on Richard's CD deserves the "privilege".

Nothing U2 can record will have that. If they weren't so busy managing property they might find the time to realize that music has changed a great deal since Boy came out and that if they want "gallery cool" to be associated with their music they need to work harder at it.

Now, where's my copy of "He's So Fine"? No, wait, I meant "My Sweet Lord"!

As you said, the first union of images and music may have been intended for each other, and therefore sit together more (in the eye of the creators at least).  But I get the feeling that if U2 suddenly came along and were allowed to use this image, then either Sugimoto forgot, or didn't think that the relationship between image and music needs to be a one-time-only affair, and may have been happy to let others put sound to his image also.

It's probably far less serious than that though... He was probably happy to have any musical artist express an idea to his art, and heck, if U2 want try their hand, then crack open the champagne and let's play pin the mustacchio on the Mona Lisa. ;)

I do feel for the artist who thought it was 'their' picture, and then finds out that it's been given to others.  Bit like infidelity really.

As for the bit about U2 managing property, well, that's kind of what I was talking about- the minute someone becomes successful, it's assumed that the music has taken a backseat, and that their musical development becomes akin to property development.  ie.  buying/stealing ideas/styles from the underground.  I think everyone does that- I know I've taken bits here and there from the underground.  The fact that I live there doesn't make me less of a thief. ;)

The healthy balance is in that what you *don't* borrow, you make up. Brian Eno once said something to the effect of: every album you release has about 5% originality and 95% generic-ness, and that's ok.  So U2 go to some other other sources for inspiration, great!  Now I've heard of Sugimoto!  Remember, U2 were all over Eno in 1985... so they're allowed to have some 'gallery cool'

By the way Mark, I don't mean to piss you off. ;)  I do enjoy arguing with you, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. :)

I also happen to think that your photography rocks!  The loscil 'plume' cover has been a fave of mine for a long time. 



« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 01:02:57 AM by deepspace »
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deepspace

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 01:11:42 AM »
Actually Mark,

Seeing you're a photographer, what are your feelings on music/image relationships and their sanctity?  What would you do if U2 came along and asked you to use an image that you had used for another artist?

I'm not doing this as a test of your artistic morality, but am curious.  I would imagine you would tell them up front that the item wasn't available right? 

Just what sort of weed was Sugimoto or his agent smoking then??

 


« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 01:14:33 AM by deepspace »
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Mark Mushet

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Re: 12K vs. U2
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 10:55:39 AM »
Seeing you're a photographer, what are your feelings on music/image relationships and their sanctity? What would you do if U2 came along and asked you to use an image that you had used for another artist? I'm not doing this as a test of your artistic morality, but am curious.  I would imagine you would tell them up front that the item wasn't available right? 

I'd do what any honorable biped would do and say sorry, it's already been used in that context. If they persist then I might approach the original licensee and ask them how they felt about it.

I know that each time I license an image for a CD cover (and I just had this very conversation with Jason at Infraction) I will not re-license it for another. Nor am I likely to allow it too near another music usage of any kind. End of story.