Author Topic: iMac for music?  (Read 17991 times)

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 09:54:59 AM »
...oh and as to performance and latency issues...unless you are tracking 16 in and 16 out at 96k, most modern computers on the market (mac and pc...desktop and laptop) can easily handle tracking duties at very acceptable latencies.

I have recorded multiple albums and projects for myself and clients on laptops, so the toy comment is asinine.

Bottom line we are now at a point where computers should not be the weak link in the chain when it comes to music production, with quad cores, 4 gigs or ram as a starting point, power is not the issue.

The budget $500 Dell we bought my wife has more inherent processing power than my mega studio machine from 3 years ago, as well as my 3 year old audio laptop. Of course she is running Vista so that drags all that power to its knees...

...you can still buy official versions of XP Pro for $90 from New Egg, and almost every serious audio computer company still installs and sells it.

Paul
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Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 10:09:15 AM »
Bottom line we are now at a point where computers should not be the weak link in the chain when it comes to music production, with quad cores, 4 gigs or ram as a starting point, power is not the issue.


I hope you are joking right ?
Sure with todays Software the computer might not be the weak link, but already there is coming new software that is VERY cpu demanding and more powerful and that take advantage of the CPU power.
T-Racks 3 which I use a lot is an cpu eater. So I think there will take many many many years until the computer is not the weak link in the production chain since the software is going to get more and more powerful in parallel with the how the CPU/Memory power evolve.

And about my Laptop comment, If you read what I said, I said..only in "general" there is exceptions, compared with workstations they are still toys though :)
So it is all relative..
 

mgriffin

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 10:10:02 AM »
I assume you are an APPLE user yourself...

I prefer to use a Mac when I can but I also have enough expertise with Windows that I'm not talking from a position of ignorance.


Quote
We are not talking about professional musicians or recording studios now do we ?
Of course as I said if you have a lot of money to waste, you can buy an mac pro, it is not like it will be worse then PC ?

Why professionals prefer Mac is probably cause it is more simple and things just work.
MAC is for lazy and rich people, where mac could be described as the "royce royce", sure an royce royce gives you social status...but an normal care though..fills it's function just as good..

I guess it's silly of me to think that some people might prefer using a Mac because of legitimate preference.  Apparently only ignorant and lazy people who are seeking social status would actually use them, right? 

It seems you have no direct experience with Macs and are making these dismissive statements to support your own preference.   Stating an uninformed opinion more forcefully does not reduce the ignorance behind the statement.

 
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Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 10:17:22 AM »
I assume you are an APPLE user yourself...

I prefer to use a Mac when I can but I also have enough expertise with Windows that I'm not talking from a position of ignorance.


Quote
We are not talking about professional musicians or recording studios now do we ?
Of course as I said if you have a lot of money to waste, you can buy an mac pro, it is not like it will be worse then PC ?

Why professionals prefer Mac is probably cause it is more simple and things just work.
MAC is for lazy and rich people, where mac could be described as the "royce royce", sure an royce royce gives you social status...but an normal care though..fills it's function just as good..

I guess it's silly of me to think that some people might prefer using a Mac because of legitimate preference.  Apparently only ignorant and lazy people who are seeking social status would actually use them, right? 

It seems you have no direct experience with Macs and are making these dismissive statements to support your own preference.   Stating an uninformed opinion more forcefully does not reduce the ignorance behind the statement.

I guess you can read my mind right ?
Actually I have never tried an MAC myself, and maybe cause I see no reason to do it.. but my knowledge is still enough to know what I am talking about.
SO I am proud PC users at the moment :)
Of a Core i7 920 and 12 GB tripple channel 1600MHZ DDR3 :)

well this is an PC/MAC debate/war :)
So of course everyone with MAC must protect their own status same with the PC people :)
So I can understand that you need to convince me how much better MAC is, but I am sorry, you will not succeed :)
My opinion remain unchanged and you read it my post above. :-*


APK

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 10:22:30 AM »
Phew !    :D
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mgriffin

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 10:26:14 AM »
I'm not trying to convince you a Mac is better.  My point isn't that one platform is superior to the other, in fact I think the reverse is true and that it's a matter of personal preference.  I'm not trying to "protect my status" because my preference for Apple computers it not based on ignorance (as you admit your own preference for Windows over Mac is based on experience with one, but not the other).  I've been an IT professional and network admin since Windows 3.1, and I understand Windows as well as anybody on this Forum. 

My main point is that your assertion that Mac users are all vain, shallow and stupid is not only wrong, but also insulting.
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 10:31:28 AM »
Bottom line we are now at a point where computers should not be the weak link in the chain when it comes to music production, with quad cores, 4 gigs or ram as a starting point, power is not the issue.


I hope you are joking right ?
Sure with todays Software the computer might not be the weak link, but already there is coming new software that is VERY cpu demanding and more powerful and that take advantage of the CPU power.
T-Racks 3 which I use a lot is an cpu eater. So I think there will take many many many years until the computer is not the weak link in the production chain since the software is going to get more and more powerful in parallel with the how the CPU/Memory power evolve.

And about my Laptop comment, If you read what I said, I said..only in "general" there is exceptions, compared with workstations they are still toys though :)
So it is all relative..
 




Actually I was not. Yes there always will be some software companies who like to push the bounds of processing power, but products such as Waves, Abbey Road, URS and others all are considered professional software and are all relatively processor efficient.

I have recorded and mixed numerous projects with an average of 24 - 36 tracks while sending 16 channels of output on a single processor AMD for years with very little CPU struggle. I have played shows, flawlessly with multiple live softsynths on a single processor Intel celeron.

Even low level budget Dells have 4 x the power now...my studio computer is a quad core intel with 4 gigs of Ram, I just did a sound design session with 200 tracks before rendering (which is a ridiculous track count) numerous plug-ins and I was barely at 75% of the computer's power.

So yeah, to use your arguments since you assume most folks here are not audio "professionals" needing big ticket macs and such...power should not be an issue.


John...buy the Mac from Best buy and be happy, it will rock. Let your computer inspire you and make you happy, you will make better music.

Paul
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2009, 10:32:02 AM »
I'm not trying to convince you a Mac is better.  My point isn't that one platform is superior to the other, in fact I think the reverse is true and that it's a matter of personal preference.  I'm not trying to "protect my status" because my preference for Apple computers it not based on ignorance (as you admit your own preference for Windows over Mac is based on experience with one, but not the other).  I've been an IT professional and network admin since Windows 3.1, and I understand Windows as well as anybody on this Forum. 

My main point is that your assertion that Mac users are all vain, shallow and stupid is not only wrong, but also insulting.

I guess we agree on with each other then.

As I said, the only thing that talks against the MAC is the price, and if you pay for something that is overpriced I find that people stupid, unless you are rich of course and the money factor is of no relevance...

The price and the vast freedom of choice when it comes to hardware... (that might be confusing to some people) is things that talks for PC.

If you are rich and do not care about money and have no experience in building computers or computer hardware in general you should really buy an MAC, that is my advice...


mgriffin

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 10:35:42 AM »
We don't agree, Immersion, because I believe it's possible for someone to prefer a Mac without being stupid.   

You're being rude and condescending, and worse yet you're doing so from a position of admitted ignorance.  But as it's obvious you're set in your beliefs so I won't argue about this any more.
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Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 10:39:40 AM »
Bottom line we are now at a point where computers should not be the weak link in the chain when it comes to music production, with quad cores, 4 gigs or ram as a starting point, power is not the issue.


I hope you are joking right ?
Sure with todays Software the computer might not be the weak link, but already there is coming new software that is VERY cpu demanding and more powerful and that take advantage of the CPU power.
T-Racks 3 which I use a lot is an cpu eater. So I think there will take many many many years until the computer is not the weak link in the production chain since the software is going to get more and more powerful in parallel with the how the CPU/Memory power evolve.

And about my Laptop comment, If you read what I said, I said..only in "general" there is exceptions, compared with workstations they are still toys though :)
So it is all relative..
 




Actually I was not. Yes there always will be some software companies who like to push the bounds of processing power, but products such as Waves, Abbey Road, URS and others all are considered professional software and are all relatively processor efficient.

I have recorded and mixed numerous projects with an average of 24 - 36 tracks while sending 16 channels of output on a single processor AMD for years with very little CPU struggle. I have played shows, flawlessly with multiple live softsynths on a single processor Intel celeron.

Even low level budget Dells have 4 x the power now...my studio computer is a quad core intel with 4 gigs of Ram, I just did a sound design session with 200 tracks before rendering (which is a ridiculous track count) numerous plug-ins and I was barely at 75% of the computer's power.

So yeah, to use your arguments since you assume most folks here are not audio "professionals" needing big ticket macs and such...power should not be an issue.


John...buy the Mac from Best buy and be happy, it will rock. Let your computer inspire you and make you happy, you will make better music.

Paul

Well..why the programs today are so CPU efficient is because that we compromise a lot..as well..it has it's price... in sound quality..
It is of course hard to imagine now how the possibilities would change with more computer power.
But I think the difference will be so great that in about 10-15 years all our productions today will sound just very digital and obsolete.
So I think we have a long way to go..before the computer is not an limited factor of your own expression...but computer power is certainly something
we could need more of... And Maybe we will soon begin to use GPU's for DSP ? these PhysX cards looks promising for the future if we could adapt it to audio processing..it would be interesting... It would be especially good for reverbs I can imagine.

mgriffin

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2009, 10:42:16 AM »
John...buy the Mac from Best buy and be happy, it will rock. Let your computer inspire you and make you happy, you will make better music.

Paul

A very useful quote, Paul, not because of the statement that John should buy a Mac specifically, but the idea that one should buy the machine that makes them feel happy and inspired.  If somebody wants to run Ubuntu Linux or BeOS or AmigaOS or DosBox or Vista or whatever makes them happy, I say go for it.
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Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2009, 10:42:34 AM »
We don't agree, Immersion, because I believe it's possible for someone to prefer a Mac without being stupid.   

You're being rude and condescending, and worse yet you're doing so from a position of admitted ignorance.  But as it's obvious you're set in your beliefs so I won't argue about this any more.

I could of course say the same about you MAC people who..look down on us PC users..it is for sure the same admitted ignorance..
I am sorry, I really do not hope you take it personally. What I am saying is from my point of view just pure fact, and the reality I am living in...
Obviously we live in different realities and which I have no problem with, this is human nature...and that is what make us all different and unique :)



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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 10:45:43 AM »
Immersion, your problem is with overstatements and too-broad generalizations, as evidenced by your use of the phrase "you Mac people," as if all Mac users are the same.

Certainly a Mac user who acts like their computer makes them "better" or more enlightened than a Windows user is operating from the same perspective of ignorance and dogmatic thinking that you're exhibiting above.
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 10:54:13 AM »
I use both...every day and they both work. Period. I agree that I don't enjoy the evangilization at a crusade level on both sides of the argument.

I am fine and happy being cross platform, both allow me to indulge in work and play equally well, I will state however that on a pure emotional level, I enjoy the Mac OS and experience better.

Paul
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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2009, 11:02:53 AM »
This is so hilarious...

Immersion - your comments are completely cracking me up - thanks for the humor today.    I guess I'll say this - a lot of the people on this forum know a lot of stuff about music, gear, recording, and computers.  It's why I asked here.   My personal background in computers goes back a long way (professionally in IT for 16 years - from mainframes to os/2 to windows and linux servers -but I tackle IT more form a data/database/programming point of view), and yes, I've run Vista and spiffy new machines and it still bugs the heck out of me.   It's just a personal preference thing.    What works for you - works for you - and that's awesome.   Use the tools that work best for you.

I'm interested in a mac because I'm ready to go that route.   If I were going to stick with pc - I'd go the ADK Pro Audio route which Paul brought up again in this thread (he's the one that originally turned me onto them a few years ago).  They're a good company and spec out some great machines.   But... I'm ready to go mac.

Let's bring this back to what I wanted to talk about in the first place...   I've decided on the iMac - I linked to it earlier in the thread - it's a 24" iMac.  I have a Presonus Firestudio Project sound card.  I'll primarily be using hardware and recording audio.   I rarely sequence.

I found where I can order the firewire 400 to 800 adapters - it appears that's going to work ok with maybe a bit of tinkering.

I'll most likely use Reaper ( http://www.reaper.fm ) because I can't afford to go Logic from the start and Reaper looks like a good fit for me.

What other nifty, very affordable apps are out there for music on a mac?   Let's keep it in the under $100 category.  
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2009, 11:32:53 AM »
...hmmm under $100? Not sure. You may want to check. Not sure what soft synths or plug-ins you own on the PC side, but many of them may be cross platform already.

The only thing I will warn you about is that there are no two track editors equal to either Sound Forge or Wavelab in the Mac world. I have tried Bias and I could not stand it. I actually know of a few high end mastering engineers who purchased PCs just to run these programs.

The good news is you can install windows on your machine with little hassle or problems.

I think there may be light versions of Logic with upgrade paths for you to check out. In fact my advice would be, before you buy a bunch of $100 plug-ins and music apps, you may want to take that same cash, save it up and jump into the full Logic right away. The only reason I suggest this is that Logic comes with a hefty collection of plug-ins, synths and samplers which may be a better fit right off the bat, and you would start learning your intended new platform sooner.

Just more food for thought.
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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2009, 11:57:51 AM »
I don't like computers for creating music  - at least in the form I have seen and could afford - not counting out machines I've not had the pleasure to met.

I have a newish computer with Vista and it is a nightmare - everything is slow and it crashes and seizes like no computer I've had before - all since installing official updates and it took me a while to realise this and can't work out which installs to uninstall >:( >:( >:(

I echo the comment of getting the equipment you are inspired by....hopefully well all be inspired by the music at a later date

Ekstasis

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2009, 12:26:47 PM »
I don't like computers for creating music  - at least in the form I have seen and could afford - not counting out machines I've not had the pleasure to met.

I have a newish computer with Vista and it is a nightmare - everything is slow and it crashes and seizes like no computer I've had before - all since installing official updates and it took me a while to realise this and can't work out which installs to uninstall >:( >:( >:(

I echo the comment of getting the equipment you are inspired by....hopefully well all be inspired by the music at a later date


Often it is the user itself that make Vista a nightmare it works flawlessly here..
You need a lot of tweaking to get the most out of it...
If your computer crashes it is most likely because of bad drivers to the hardware...The drivers are beyond Microsoft's control really..

http://www.vlite.net/

jkn

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2009, 12:36:40 PM »

ok - I'll seriously take a look at Logic Express and just saving up...  :-)  I know that's where I'm going.

Bummer on the Sound Forge thing - maybe I'll have to dual boot after all.

John

p.s.  I'm just not reading Immersion for awhile.
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mgriffin

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Re: iMac for music?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2009, 12:53:06 PM »
Dual booting isn't really too big a deal.  But Paul's right that there is no Sound Forge equivalent on Mac OS.  It's kind of weird, actually, that nobody ever bothered to  come up with a good, straightforward 2-track editing/mastering app on Mac OS.
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