Author Topic: Downloading Music and Rights  (Read 40952 times)

mgriffin

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2009, 10:16:35 AM »
I don't have any problem with people buying or selling used CDs.  I don't feel listeners should be forced to hold onto CDs they no longer enjoy.  I've certainly sold CDs of my own that just don't get played lately, more to clear out room than to raise a lot of money.

Of course, ripping a CD to your iTunes library and then selling the CD used is no different from just pirating it in the first place, without ever having bought a copy.
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lena

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2009, 10:23:59 AM »
Quote
Steve Roach is one of the very few people who create ambient music who sell so many cds albums and can survive on his music.

But don't you understand? If more and more and more people start stealing his music instead of buying it, there will come a day when he WON'T be able to survive on it anymore.



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bunkdata

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2009, 10:58:57 AM »

I think used CD's are in a grey area.  If I spent $10 on a cd, then didn't like it, I should be able to resell it to someone else who may appreciate it.  But what if I make a copy for myself, then resell it?  A strange aspect of all this is the experience of hearing the music.  It's like seeing a play; if it sucked, do I get my money back?  I can't "resell" my experience - I saw the play, and can't "unsee" it.  Isn't that part of my risk going into it?  Places like Soleilmoon have a money-back guarantee - if you buy a disk, then don't like it, they'll give you a refund.  But what if I like it, then get bored with it in two years?  If I paid for the music, didn't I get two years of enjoyment out of it?  Am I now entitled to sell the medium, because I'm bored with the content?

Did I buy the medium, or the music?  


I agree, the used media sales are in a grey area as well.  While I think it's safe to say that the internet and the wide availability of free, illegal media on the net has increased piracy in general, I still think that the people that will pay for music will continue to pay for it and those that want shit for free will continue to find ways to do so.  As stated in other posts, people who buy used CDs and books mostly likely will continue to do so due to the overall savings they can achieve.  While prices a lot of online media has become more reasonable, there will always be the cheap-asses who wouldn't even pay even $5 for a Steve Roach exclusive MP3 release!  Not much we can do about it I guess but make the media reasonable for those that WILL pay for the media, and THANK YOU to those that do!

Seren

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2009, 11:13:44 AM »
I think there are lots of aspects and sides to the discussion and I have to admit I'd not thought about second hand CDs in that way....so lots to learn from.

I think my issue with the 'everything for free' comes from the perception that only by taking from others can everything be free and only in a wealthy and 'civilised' society are things organised in ways that make it possible to act on. Immersion said himself that if everyone in his country chose not to work it would collapse (I think thats what you meant).

Take it right back to basics - you find yourself on a desert island - how you going to survive? You've got to put your arse into it cos nothing is going to come for free. Even in modern society, someones effort has gone into making everything that might be taken for free - even the torrent websites need someones effort to exist.

There is an anarchist philosophy of (cant remember the exact quote) each from their means and according to their needs - but this was always based on co-creation. Some people grow food, others eat that food so they can make the clothes the farmers wear while working type of thing. The idea never envisaged swathes of society just sitting around and eating food made by others, wearing clothes made by others because they can. Accepted response of general population to such people was not pleasant....

I suppose, across generations, we may be talking about different ideas of respect, freedom, utopia - and I have had a long history of this type of discussion, including direct action/court cases and prison sentences based on those beliefs and even now they inform my work in that I put a lot of energy to help disadvantaged people left behind by the capitalist society.

I know I could not survive on my own and I would prefer not to take from people unless they are giving something away out of respect for them.


9dragons

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2009, 11:34:32 AM »
Of course, ripping a CD to your iTunes library and then selling the CD used is no different from just pirating it in the first place, without ever having bought a copy.
Mike, this statement doesn't quite make sense to me. A cd bought new is around $15, including tax/shipping, which brings us close to $20. When it's sold, a record store might give $1-$4, or do a trade in type of deal. A bit more money might be made on Ebay, but the point is that one will certainly not make the money back that was put into purchase. Now, if that cd is burned onto the computer before selling the hard copy, in my opinion that can't be equated with piracy. After all, the person did actually buy the album, thereby increasing album sales. If they sell it back, whether it is because they don't like it, or to recoup a bit of money, and also decide to burn it, I can see no wrong in that. I mentioned this whole nuance earlier in the thread, and I'm still not fully decided on whether it is "right" or not, but I am beginning to think it is pushing the limit of what is "right" to be afraid to burn an album before one decides to sell it, for whatever reason. As I mentioned before, when I sell a cd, I often burn it, just in case, but rarely ever listen to it again, and usually delete it, because it no longer feels real to me.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 11:36:31 AM by 9dragons »

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2009, 11:45:12 AM »
Unfortunately, it is true however. According to the law, the minute you sell a cd, you no longer have the rights to own said CD and it is actually illegal to burn it to your library and sell it. Again, it does not matter what you think or feel is right, the law is the law.

PV
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SunDummy

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2009, 12:22:37 PM »
This is the distinction between buying the medium (disk, tape) and buying the music on that medium.  What, exactly, are we buying?
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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2009, 12:36:33 PM »
Of course, ripping a CD to your iTunes library and then selling the CD used is no different from just pirating it in the first place, without ever having bought a copy.
Mike, this statement doesn't quite make sense to me. A cd bought new is around $15, including tax/shipping, which brings us close to $20. When it's sold, a record store might give $1-$4, or do a trade in type of deal. A bit more money might be made on Ebay, but the point is that one will certainly not make the money back that was put into purchase. Now, if that cd is burned onto the computer before selling the hard copy, in my opinion that can't be equated with piracy. After all, the person did actually buy the album, thereby increasing album sales. If they sell it back, whether it is because they don't like it, or to recoup a bit of money, and also decide to burn it, I can see no wrong in that. I mentioned this whole nuance earlier in the thread, and I'm still not fully decided on whether it is "right" or not, but I am beginning to think it is pushing the limit of what is "right" to be afraid to burn an album before one decides to sell it, for whatever reason. As I mentioned before, when I sell a cd, I often burn it, just in case, but rarely ever listen to it again, and usually delete it, because it no longer feels real to me.

What if you paid $10 for the cd, and can now re-sell it on eBay for $50?  Does that change the equation?  Is it still ok to keep a burned copy?
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Stellar Auditorium

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2009, 12:37:20 PM »
Unfortunately, it is true however. According to the law, the minute you sell a cd, you no longer have the rights to own said CD and it is actually illegal to burn it to your library and sell it. Again, it does not matter what you think or feel is right, the law is the law.

PV

No, what we feel and think is important. The law isn't some god-given commandment that people should accept a priori, it is a social contract made in order to hold society together. But, law is always imperfect, because society progresses and changes every minute. I believe we should debate rather than blindly accept everything that is imposed towards us, because either these things that the law is supposed to protect by supressing certain actions now might be invalid (hypothesis) or need to be reconfigured to fit recent developments. In our case, we all know we're "breaking" the law by illigally downloading music, but when someone ends up buying it shortly thereafter, how is any damage done? Why should we conform to the status quo when essentially our actions do not harm anyone, and instead offer us roads towards self-expansion? Would it REALLY cause any problem to anyone if we download an album that is our of print and can't be found anywhere else, rip a cd that we have bought from the artist (and then sold for an equal price), or download an album that we have already ordered from the artist as a preview (I think that was the case with Immersion, if I'm not mistaken?) I'd like an honest response concerning this...  
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 12:42:25 PM by Stellar Auditorium »

mgriffin

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2009, 12:52:18 PM »
In our case, we all know we're "breaking" the law by illigally downloading music, but when someone ends up buying it shortly thereafter, how is any damage done?

If illegal downloads usually led to the music being purchased soon after, there would be no controversy and none of us would be complaining about the technical illegality of the downloads.

The reason there's a problem is that far more often, the illegal downloads PREVENTS a sale of the music afterward.




Quote
Would it REALLY cause any problem to anyone if we download an album that is our of print and can't be found anywhere else, rip a cd that we have bought from the artist (and then sold for an equal price),

In this situation, you have 2 listeners enjoying the recording as if they "own" it, and yet only 1 copy has been purchased from the artist.

And if an album is out of print, and yet freely available as an illegal download, then there is little chance that sufficient demand for a re-release will ever occur.  Prior to file sharing, there would be significant demand for reissues of certain out of print recordings (remember the early FAX label releases?) which usually led to a legitimate reissue.  If no such demand ever builds back up (because everyone who wants the recording just downloads it on bittorrent), then such reissues will not happen, and in that sense also, the artist and/or label has been harmed.



Quote
or download an album that we have already ordered from the artist as a preview (I think that was the case with Immersion, if I'm not mistaken?) I'd like an honest response concerning this...  

Again, I don't think that the artist or label would complain about downloading in this situation -- the person willingly purchased the recording, so the download while technically illegal did not harm the artist/label or cost them any revenue.
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2009, 01:00:17 PM »

In our case, we all know we're "breaking" the law by illigally downloading music, but when someone ends up buying it shortly thereafter, how is any damage done?

Well, yes it is ok to question laws and even work to change them. Every democratic society is based on this. You work to change the law and voice your opinion, not break it because you disagree. It not like you are homeless and stealing food for your very survival...you are stealing music because you think it is somehow intrinsically owed to you. The reason it is wrong is that now you are keeping something which you have sold the rights too. If you want it cheaper...you go buy it used and save some money. But the fact that you paid $15 new and could only sell it used for $5 is unfortunately irrelevant. Again you are simply justifying your actions to fit your own paradigm and thus telling me you are entitled to keep the music, even though you are selling the hard copy CD. If you just wanted it digitally in the 1st place...buy the download.

This just keeps coming down to: I want to own what I want, I deserve it and it should fit my personal model economy.

PV
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

APK

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2009, 01:09:38 PM »
Of course it is easy to justify downloading when you say you are going to buy it if you like it. Treating the download as a big sample. And some people no doubt do act this way. But it would be seriously wrong to think you can trust the majority of people to act this way. For them a free download is just that... the album for free. Just like software for free.  At least software is programming, so certain safe-guards can be built in for getting it working (which of course people still crack), and it can still have hidden viruses/malware. But music can't be protected the same way, and so is vulnerable to easy copying and sharing.
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APK

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2009, 01:16:28 PM »
REMEMBER THIS:
The BIG winner in this downloading p2p (etc) frenzy is the BIG internet companies who simply sell access to downloadable files by bandwidth. They are the new capitalists. They of course WANT plenty of free stuff available to download. It's straight money to them.   

Same for chinese and russian music download sites that charge a dollar or two per album ... they are riding on the backs of other people's labour. They are what the modern internet leads to and they are the scammers -- they are getting paid for the "free" albums and programs you download
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mgriffin

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2009, 01:19:49 PM »
Nothing like an intellectual property debate to get the Hypnos Forum humming again!

 :)
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SunDummy

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2009, 01:31:42 PM »
I would bet that there's not one person involved in this conversation who has not made a copy of a disk (or made a mix-tape) for a friend, downloaded some rare obscure out-of-print LP, or otherwise broken copyright laws.  We've all broken a law at one point or another, some of us more often (and severely) than others.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try aspire to a higher standard.
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mgriffin

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2009, 01:36:21 PM »
Right Sundummy, and the point isn't to be holier-than-thou and say nobody must EVER violate copyright in the slightest way.  The point is to affirm that artists and copyright holders do have rights, and if listeners/consumers all completely ignored those rights, we'd end up with a situation that was worse for everyone.

It may not be "fun" to pay for music (or books or art or software) but it does help support the scene and ensure that more of the best-quality material keeps being released.
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2009, 01:49:34 PM »
Amen brotha Mike!
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Stellar Auditorium

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2009, 02:01:06 PM »
If illegal downloads usually led to the music being purchased soon after, there would be no controversy and none of us would be complaining about the technical illegality of the downloads.

The reason there's a problem is that far more often, the illegal downloads PREVENTS a sale of the music afterward.


I know, but I am not talking about this case, am I talking about the, perhaps, unfrequent case that I'm describing, which applies to me, as someone who still continues to at the same time, download and buy music without a decrease in volume. The real question I believe, is not if illegal downloading affects the sale of cds (we know that it is a negative affect) but if it is worth propagating against it and persecuting the people that are carrying it out. For all of the reasons that I have described, I do not share this opinion. 

In this situation, you have 2 listeners enjoying the recording as if they "own" it, and yet only 1 copy has been purchased from the artist.

I see no problem about this. The artist has been paid for this very copy, and what happens is that the act of buying (sorry if I'm not not making sense, but neither English or law is my forte) is transferred to some other man. The seller, has accomplished his due towards the artist and does not hurt anyone if he keeps a rip of the cd certainly. The buyer however, should have bought a copy directly from the artist rather than buying this used cd. He's much more liable than the seller for the problem, in my book.

And if an album is out of print, and yet freely available as an illegal download, then there is little chance that sufficient demand for a re-release will ever occur. Prior to file sharing, there would be significant demand for reissues of certain out of print recordings (remember the early FAX label releases?) which usually led to a legitimate reissue. If no such demand ever builds back up (because everyone who wants the recording just downloads it on bittorrent), then such reissues will not happen, and in that sense also, the artist and/or label has been harmed.

I'm unsure that this happens in all cases. Sometimes, an unheard album at its time will be "re-discovered" through the file sharing networks and get hyped up, which will end up in the record being re-released. I'm aware of many such cases, especially in the rock/metal underground, which has been among my main "fields" in the past. In any case, personally I'd be glad to buy a re-release of a long out of print record that I have once downloaded, as with any other music.

This just keeps coming down to: I want to own what I want, I deserve it and it should fit my personal model economy.


Please try not to attribute to me things that I never said. I don't know if I deserve it, but I want it, that's certainly true. And in fact, what I'm trying to do is to compromise my desire as to not allow it have a negative effect on the world. Essentially, to provide my final argument, I believe that this approach only strengthens good art: taking into consideration that the amount of money I spend on music has remained stable because of my economic needs as a human being, illegal downloading has allowed me to make a much better selection of the records I was going to buy, in comparison to buying blindly or relying on short samples, thus providing with financial support artists that consequitively deserve it more. Essentially, as pretty much everything, downloading is a tool that can be used for a good and a bad purpose. I know that its hard for everyone to comply with this and that currently it is abused rather than used, but one can only hope, and try to actively change the world by voicing his/her opinion.   

REMEMBER THIS:
The BIG winner in this downloading p2p (etc) frenzy is the BIG internet companies who simply sell access to downloadable files by bandwidth. They are the new capitalists. They of course WANT plenty of free stuff available to download. It's straight money to them.


Very correct, this is why I never was a rapidshare premium member or any other websites of that sort. There are file sharing programs that do not demand subscription, have ads, or any sort of commercial attributes though. Uhh, enough for today...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 02:04:23 PM by Stellar Auditorium »

mgriffin

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2009, 02:13:14 PM »
In this situation, you have 2 listeners enjoying the recording as if they "own" it, and yet only 1 copy has been purchased from the artist.

I see no problem about this. The artist has been paid for this very copy, and what happens is that the act of buying (sorry if I'm not not making sense, but neither English or law is my forte) is transferred to some other man. The seller, has accomplished his due towards the artist and does not hurt anyone if he keeps a rip of the cd certainly. The buyer however, should have bought a copy directly from the artist rather than buying this used cd. He's much more liable than the seller for the problem, in my book.

I agree the problem is a little hard to see when we talk about one person buying a CD, then keeping a copy and re-selling it to a second person.

In order to more clearly illustrate the problem, imagine a situation where a CD is released and Citizen #1 buys one CD, duplicates it, and sells the original to Citizen #2, who also duplicates it, and sells it to Citizen #3, and so on. 

Eventually, every citizen in the country has a copy of the music, and every single one of them can say "but I paid for a copy," and yet only one copy has been purchased new, generating revenue for the artist, label or rights-holder.  Does this make clearer how duplicating the music before passing it along is just as detrimental to the artist, as if everyone just downloaded it illegally and never bought anything?
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Stellar Auditorium

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Re: Downloading Music and Rights
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2009, 02:26:06 PM »
Of course, I was well aware of that when I posted, and actually the answer to that is in my previous post. The problem isn't that the original buyer makes a copy of the album after selling it, the problem is that the 2nd buyer is actually buying a used cd! It's not a play of words, but the problem seems to be more on the action of selling a used cd a priori, than the actual duplicating of the album. To illustrate this better, I'll tell you the following: even if the original buyer never made a copy/rip of the album, the EXPERIENCE of listening to the cd would still be there. It's the same type of argument that someone used when saying than playing a record for your friends might samely constitute a problem, in the same vein of thought. So, basically I conclude that the only real problem is in the buyer not getting the album directly from the artist, which is way more harmful than the 'duplication' of the copies. That is almost irrelevant, which is perhaps something that can be said about downloading as well.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 02:39:44 PM by Stellar Auditorium »