Author Topic: Lexicon Goes Native  (Read 14151 times)

Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2009, 06:48:37 PM »
Quote from: mgriffin
It's bizarre to me that Lexicon themselves would imply the software reverb plugin is as good as or better than the hardware product.

Well technically that's a true statement. Almost all effects boxes are just algorithms and only if they're run on or through analog systems there will be a difference.

Quote
I doubt they're trying to get out of the market of hardware reverbs.

We wouldn't doubt that - hardware is expensive to build. There's a misunderstanding that software is easier to build (it's harder to build and maintain.) But SW eliminates HW suppliers, and you can keep improving on it without having to get UL approval, worry about redesigning mother & circuit boards (again, imaging a perfect world where your SW framework was built correctly to allow easy expansion...) and so on.

All that said, that they dropped two algorithms is not a good sign that it's a well-developed piece of software. When you go software, you should include more, and lots more settings. Look at Waves - they've had world-class SW effects for close to 15 years now. The only HW we won't part with are Roland and Lexicon reverbs, BOSS (Roland) old classic chorus, and of course, compressor/limitor, since you can't really limit in software unless your HW card has something built in. Waves built the L1 then L3 after the SW versions were out, for people who needed to be sure they could use them without worry what mixdown/recording SW was being run, and Apple vs. PC vs. Linux even.

So, we'll stick with our Lex HW effects for now - this definitely seems to be a bit "too good to be true".  But as usual, we do hope we're totally wrong!

Blackinfinity

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 07:50:25 PM »
I get much the impression that they will focouse more on Software in the future, the main programmer of the PCM series seem very tired of programming non-native code on DSP chips... Also professional stuidios demand more and more software solutions, the only reason why people have been using these hardware boxes for so long is cause there is no good software alternative yet.

Also now with i7 platform cpu power is not much of an problem any more, From what I have heard you could probably run 80+ instances of this plugin on an i7,heard at least they did manage to run 58 instances on an G5.

The only reason why I think lexicon have been staying away from the software market for so long is because of piracy, they want to protect their algorithms,  now it is only a matter of time before it gets cracked, ILOK for windows is cracked as we know...but not for all plugins. But there are still many many expensive plugins which still have not been cracked, for instances EVENTIDE's reverbs/effects have not been cracked... However I think... Lexicon will be cracked within 6 months....

BTW I did try the much hyped Audio Damange EOS plugin some days ago, which Robert Rich did recommend as an good budget alternative. My impression is that they early reflections sounds very good, it blend well together with the source audio, the superhall works great for certain ambient music, however the 10s decay time limit does make it suitable for only a certain type of sounds... I wish longer decay times will be possible in future..I will still use it together with Ariesverb for now..

Sunbreak Music

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 08:41:46 PM »
I'll bet it's cracked sooner than that.  Anyway, my partner Paul Russell sent me a few tracks w/ the verb plugs and they definitely sounded like Lexicon....pretty sweet.
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Blackinfinity

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 08:48:02 PM »
would you mind sharing those tracks ?

I have only heard a few samples so far...

Sunbreak Music

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 08:45:50 AM »
would you mind sharing those tracks ?

I have only heard a few samples so far...

Can't see why I can't post a very short sample.  Will try later today.
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Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 02:40:04 PM »
would you mind sharing those tracks ?

I have only heard a few samples so far...

Can't see why I can't post a very short sample.  Will try later today.

Can you please post a "dry" version and a processed version?

We would like to download the "dry" one and show how we can use good old Waves (which is a suite of amazing SW effects) for which we've come up with settings we feel identical to the more expensive Lexicon HW units, and our Roland SRV-330 which we program heavily as well - anyway, we'll see how close we can come to getting the same sound.

In the end, we've thought about it, and we'll stick with Waves as a suite, very easy to "tune" and "tweak" settings to get what you want, and our Roland/BOSS HW effects. Why get caught up paying USD $400-600 for a single purpose (reverb, chorus, etc.) for SW and then another USD $150 every other year to "upgrade" to the latest version?

Also, live - Mike brought up the "all laptop" performers - we remembered seeing Rena Jones and her Mac crashed - and there was dead air for 10 minutes while she rebooted and set everything back up. At least if you're playing hardware live, if one thing goes wrong, you can often at least get through what you're playing and not have a major dead-air "sparkles!" lull in the show. Esp. if your HW effects, synths, etc. have passive pass-thru which means even if they're off, the signal goes through.

Too much software, and too much reliance on a single failure point (a PC or Mac) - just really not great when that failure happens, which we've seen more than just the Rena Jones show (that just comes to mind since we were so disappointed as we love her musick.)

So bring on the samples! :D  Cheers all!

Sunbreak Music

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 04:19:48 PM »
Actually I can't post the dry samples, 'cause I don't have them.  I just received a rough mix of a track.

But I gotta' tell ya', I don't get much into the "this sounds just like that" sorts of things, or "I can make it sound 90% of this or that".  I've been through that with people claiming to use EQ to make a Studio Project's C1 sound like a U87, and there's nothing to gain for my time.  Usually this sort of conclusion (and occasionally delusion) comes from monitoring shortfalls.  They say it does, I say it doesn't.  Unresolvable.

But your point about learning to use what ya' got is the most valid point that can ever be made--but we all know it's easier to buy the next "sound".


Cass Anawaty, Mastering Engineer
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Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 06:55:44 PM »

Actually I can't post the dry samples, 'cause I don't have them.  I just received a rough mix of a track.

Bummer. Maybe someone else can post a dry track and one run through a couple of the SW Lexicon settings?

Quote

But I gotta' tell ya', I don't get much into the "this sounds just like that" sorts of things, or "I can make it sound 90% of this or that".  I've been through that with people claiming to use EQ to make a Studio Project's C1 sound like a U87, and there's nothing to gain for my time.

We must politely semi-agree - it all depends on the type of effect, sound-source (instrument(s)) etc. When you bring up a U87, that's a mic, and we would never claim to be able to get the same sound from a mic, not even with any of the mic "emulators" we've tried and heard. Which is why we buy mics.

So we'll say that if you're talking reverbs, that's one thing. Trying to simulate a U87, esp. a vintage one - good luck. But if you read our posts, you'll note that we said that once something goes analogue - then it's a completely different story. And a U87 is definitely analogue. So we think we tried to cover that, yeah?

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Usually this sort of conclusion (and occasionally delusion) comes from monitoring shortfalls.  They say it does, I say it doesn't.  Unresolvable.

We completely agree. Monitoring shortfalls, and you forgot another major factor that we've run into more and more each year (with others, we're very careful): hearing loss!  So many ppl think something sounds "right" but their ears are so wrecked that it's a joke, really.

Quote

But your point about learning to use what ya' got is the most valid point that can ever be made--but we all know it's easier to buy the next "sound".

That's our main point - sit down, learn what you have, and write musick. Spending time trying out the latest this or that - we know one friend who'd prolly have several 12" singles done and ready for pressing if he didn't keep upgrading his software and spending all his spare time learning it - only to upgrade something else and waste time going down that path.

Much of the best musick we've heard has been done with minimal setups. And the bands that get big and start buying tons of gear and writing songs in the studio rather than at home and/or on tour (cough... Sonic Youth... cough... Decemberists... cough... Sigur Ros... cough... et. al) well, they tend to start to suck.

That's why we like Eno & Lanois' approach - like with U2, they force them to pick their gear out, put it in the studio, and only when they've practiced some basic song structures and ideas. And then maybe Eno/Lanois will do some little/lot of post-production, but they force the band to "work with what they've got". Like they had to when nobody knew them.

Great points! Cheers!

Blackinfinity

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 07:30:54 PM »
I have heard the argument before, you do not need a good reverb, a cheap reverb and "experience" is all you need to make an cheap reverb sound expensive... I strongly disagree, I think the Reverb is just as comparable to an "mic" you cant simulate these algorithms  not even with the best software tools you can imagine...You can come close yes, but depending on how demanding you are it can be worlds apart. For me A lexicon reverb and cheaper reverbs are just worlds apart, but again...it all depends on how you use the reverb and what you use it far... for ambient music which is drenched in long reverb decays, the reverb is very important..and it will be very hard to make a cheaper reverb sound as Lexicon... but yeah..I guess we do not all need the best to create music... but if you are making ambient music I think an Lexicon reverb will be one of your best investments...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 07:01:36 AM by Blackinfinity »

Sunbreak Music

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2009, 11:57:09 AM »
Although I actually sold my Lexicon about a year ago, I still prefer to have many reverb choices.  Sometimes for me it's just a workflow issue--I "know" what it sounds like and can go from there.  The basic algorithms have a "sound" to themselves.  Lexicon with the chorused tail...VSS3 with the superior early reflections....Eventide with the pitch modulation and all sort of other weird things going on....Wizoo with IR impulses for static spaces....you get the idea.

As far as a workflow issue, to me it's similiar to people who are able to null expensive software EQs with cheap ones.  It might take 'em a while, but they can do it.  I'd rather grab a UAD cambridge with a certain filter slope and be done with it.

I've have heard some pretty amazing sounds from a couple of the Waves plugs--IR-1 used in combination with Ren (I'm guessing), which certainly aren't slouches.  Truth is I have no idea how the engineer did it.....   ;)
Cass Anawaty, Mastering Engineer
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Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2010, 07:11:50 PM »

I get much the impression that they will focouse more on Software in the future, the main programmer of the PCM series seem very tired of programming non-native code on DSP chips...


A friend who does DSP programming says non-native code on DSP chips gets really boring and old fast. He loved it at first, but over some years simply hates it. So they're moving away from DSP solutions and towards other chipsets used for embedded Windows SW.

Quote

Also professional stuidios demand more and more software solutions, the only reason why people have been using these hardware boxes for so long is cause there is no good software alternative yet.


Wonder about that - the studios we know (and the one we work with) stick with the HW because it just works. And a 2U rackmount unit is better than having to have 4-5 PCs all running - i7 CPUs or not. Then again, it could be a "thing" with where we live - a very analog town.

Quote

The only reason why I think lexicon have been staying away from the software market for so long is because of piracy, they want to protect their algorithms,  now it is only a matter of time before it gets cracked, ILOK for windows is cracked as we know...but not for all plugins. But there are still many many expensive plugins which still have not been cracked, for instances EVENTIDE's reverbs/effects have not been cracked... However I think... Lexicon will be cracked within 6 months....


Agreed they want to protect the algorithms, but from whom? Other manufacturers have most certainly reverse-engineered and sucked the algorithms out of any Lexicon unit that runs them on a DSP or such. And Eventide's effects were cracked pretty quickly, actually.

Quote

BTW I did try the much hyped Audio Damange EOS plugin some days ago, which Robert Rich did recommend as an good budget alternative.


Just spoke with Robert about many things, including reverbs. His fave was the Sony R7 units, which were already a bitch because of the soldered-in battery, that seem to all be dying mysteriously, to what Robert funnily called "DSP rot". He recommended the Audio Damage EOS plugin as a "budget" alternative - not as a replacement for a high-end reverb.

His recommendation for the best software reverb was the "Aetherverb" (sp?) and we discussed the Toraverb from D16 (http://d16.pl) which is a reverb purposefully built to avoid the typical "space emulation" as well as plate, spring, hall, etc. reverbs but entirely for programming and "sound design". There's a demo to download that we're going to try once we finish some other projects, and it's only USD $50.

FWIW, Robert Rich has been making "ambient" musick for three decades now and doesn't use Lexicon 'verbs, don't think he's ever kept one, although he'd have to say for sure. Hasn't had one in years from what we talked about. But then again, the type of ambient musick each person makes may make a Lexicon perfect for you - or not. But to say everyone should have one (and we do) we think is a bit of a stretch. :)

Note that we're not even willing to install a demo on our DAW until we finish three projects we're working on - it's just too risky that it might screw things up. Wethinks that's the real reason most studios are hanging on to hardware. Too many bad experiences with installing a new "toy" only to have to spend days or weeks fixing the PC instead of using it to work on musick. We certainly have been through that a number of times, as have other people we know, and we don't enjoy reinstalling PCs. Maybe the Mac world is better? Cheers!

Blackinfinity

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2010, 07:49:53 PM »
Aether is good, but the best bang for the buck is the wave arts Masterverb 5, it is both less expensive then Aether and sounds also better.



Not sure why it gets in the shadow to Aether.. Aether is overpriced if you ask me.....I guess because of less marketing... it is simply a better sounding
reverb if you ask me, and ideal for people who make Ambient and have a low budget.

Toraverb... is an very unnatural and metallic and grainy sound, has no respect to the source audio...it is almost an sound mangler
if you ask me...cause it has such an huge impact on the sound...It can work excellent for a more "dirty" sound... works probably best on digital sounds...ToraVerb is still not among my favorites but it can definitely be useful when you want that type of sound...but it's definitely not an all round sound that will fit for all situations. 
The GUI however is one of the best I have seen, other manufactures should watch and learn, very photo realstic-



I still plan to buy the Lexicon PCM Native...when I can afford it... if I am lucky I am might be able to
buy it second hand on ebay or something for a lower price.

Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2010, 10:40:52 PM »

Toraverb... is an very unnatural and metallic and grainy sound, has no respect to the source audio...it is almost an sound mangler
if you ask me...cause it has such an huge impact on the sound...It can work excellent for a more "dirty" sound... works probably best on digital sounds...ToraVerb is still not among my favorites but it can definitely be useful when you want that type of sound...but it's definitely not an all round sound that will fit for all situations. 
The GUI however is one of the best I have seen, other manufactures should watch and learn, very photo realstic-



The Toraverb was pointed out to us by a friend who said he really had to spend a lot of time learning to do sound design with it. He did say it's not for everything, but as he gets better at programming it, he's finding it more and more useful.

Since we tend to program / tweak every reverb we use on every track we write, there's a certain appeal, but we'll keep your experience in mind! Thanks!

LNerell

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2010, 10:48:41 PM »
Just spoke with Robert about many things, including reverbs. His fave was the Sony R7 units, which were already a bitch because of the soldered-in battery, that seem to all be dying mysteriously, to what Robert funnily called "DSP rot".

I think the mystery is called time. The R7 is now about 15 years old and batteries don't last forever. When the battery goes the units starts acting very strange. Once the battery is replaced its back to normal. My battery went out a year or so ago, I replaced it myself, not much of a bitch really. Just unsolder and replace. Now its working fine.

FWIW, Robert Rich has been making "ambient" musick for three decades now and doesn't use Lexicon 'verbs, don't think he's ever kept one, although he'd have to say for sure

Robert use to own a PCM60 that he bought new, the last time I was in his studio (been a while now) he still had it, although I don't think he really used it that much if at all anymore.
Take care.

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Austere

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2010, 11:57:22 PM »
Quote

I think the mystery is called time. The R7 is now about 15 years old and batteries don't last forever. When the battery goes the units starts acting very strange.
Once the battery is replaced its back to normal. My battery went out a year or so ago, I replaced it myself, not much of a bitch really. Just unsolder and replace. Now its working fine.

Aw, come om.... It's sad to see so many posts in this forum seem condescending, albeit we no doubt come across that way. We respect the opinions and assume that people posting here know what they're talking about. We mentioned that the batteries being soldered-in was "already a bitch", but... we're sorry we weren't more explicit in saying that it was something more than that.

It's not the batteries - both Mr. Rich and we have replaced those suckers many times in many units. We have a friend who owns four, three of which died within one year, despite new batteries. It's nothing to do with that. Nor is it 15 years - our Roland SRV-333 is almost 30 years old and works like a charm. Robert said he's been replacing batteries in his R7's and for other musickians' for years, but suddenly everyone's units are dying and nobody can fix them. Hence the "DSP rot" joke. Get it?

Quote

Robert used to own a PCM60 that he bought new, the last time I was in his studio (been a while now) he still had it, although I don't think he really used it that much if at all anymore.

He's had "borrowed" Lexicon PCM's - several models - and has used them, but believe he said he never actually owned one.

It's pretty cool that he's got pals to share gear with.

We'd get into what Mr. Rich is using in place of the R7 but we'll leave that to him and his blog. This forum seems a bit too hostile for us. We'll leave it to the experts.

ffcal

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2010, 01:18:28 AM »
Quote
This forum seems a bit too hostile for us. We'll leave it to the experts.

Funny, I thought your comments about other ambient artists of the last 3-4 years wasn't too endearing, either.

Forrest

Scott M2

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2010, 08:26:39 AM »
FWIW, Robert Rich has been making "ambient" musick for three decades now and doesn't use Lexicon 'verbs, don't think he's ever kept one, although he'd have to say for sure

Robert use to own a PCM60 that he bought new, the last time I was in his studio (been a while now) he still had it, although I don't think he really used it that much if at all anymore.

When Robert last played Toronto I thought I saw an LXP-1 reverb in his rack
(but perhaps it was an LXP-5).

LNerell

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2010, 11:26:58 AM »

Aw, come om.... It's sad to see so many posts in this forum seem condescending, albeit we no doubt come across that way.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, and yes you do come across that way at times.

It's not the batteries - both Mr. Rich and we have replaced those suckers many times in many units. We have a friend who owns four, three of which died within one year, despite new batteries. It's nothing to do with that. Nor is it 15 years - our Roland SRV-333 is almost 30 years old and works like a charm. Robert said he's been replacing batteries in his R7's and for other musickians' for years, but suddenly everyone's units are dying and nobody can fix them. Hence the "DSP rot" joke. Get it?

Yeah I get it, but have never heard of it before. I have an R7, and I have several friends who also have them, never heard of any of them saying their units have died, except for Robert. And as for the Roland SRV-333, I am assuming that's a typo and that you mean SRV-330, which is not 30 years old, but less then 20. It came out about the same time as the R7, maybe a year or two before. The funny thing is my R7 is working fine but my SRV-330 recently died, powersupply I think.

He's had "borrowed" Lexicon PCM's - several models - and has used them, but believe he said he never actually owned one.

Well I don't know what he told you, all I know is what I know. I've known Robert for 25 years now, and I remember when he bought the PCM60, as I had just bought a Yamaha REV7, and we were comparing notes on the two. Also as Scott pointed out he has a LXP1/5 that he uses in his live setup. At the time for the price those were pretty cool little units, I own both, I just wish mine still worked. Sorry no DSP rot, just good old fashion capacitor rot.

Alright enough of this for now, I'm off to the NAMM show. Maybe I can track down someone from Sony and get to the bottom of this DSP rot. Ok, now that was a bit condescending.  ;D
Take care.

- Loren Nerell

Blackinfinity

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2010, 04:03:07 PM »
Finally got the Lexicon PCM Native!!!!

will take some time...to get used to it...but right now it sounds not compparable to any other software reverb I have tried... Masterverb 5 included...

The presets is not too much help I think... have only got time to try the Hall plugin so far.

petekelly

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Re: Lexicon Goes Native
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2010, 02:11:44 PM »

Any chance of posting some samples ?. I'm keen to hear if this 'verb is as great as its supposed to be.

cheers
Pete