What's the verdict on Thanksgiving?

[mgriffin]

Many (most?) Hypnos Forum members are outside the USA, so you'll probably wonder what the hell I'm talking about.

We have this holiday, Thanksgiving, which is tomorrow.  It's something like the last Thursday of every November.  It's one of those strange holidays in that most people who celebrate it probably couldn't tell you any very good reasons why it's celebrated, or what it means to them.  Most Americans would say "Hmm, turkey and dressing and mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce and pumpkin pie... hmmm, Thanksgiving!"  It's become almost 100% about specific foods, combined with vague images of "pilgrims" arriving at Plymouth Rock, hanging around with Native Americans (called Indians until very recent political correctness changed this appellation), and having an autumn feast to basically give thanks for having enough to eat.



More recently, traditions have arisen which have nothing to do with the Thanksgiving holiday, but have come to be so closely associated with it as to be almost inseparable.  I'm referring to things like NFL football, specifically the Detroit Lions and Dallas Cowboys, and John Madden cutting up this weird combination of turkey, duck and chicken during the telecast.  There's also "Black Friday," this huge tradition of retail stores having supposedly great sales and specials, and people lining up Thursday evening to wait overnight until the stores open at midnight or 2 or 3 AM, with all kinds of fights and rioting over certain cheap deals designed to get desperate shoppers in the doors.

I wouldn't say I have a negative feeling about Thanksgiving, and I certainly do feel thankful for all the things I have in my life, but I think it's become a sort of crass and commercialized exercise here, and the Black Friday thing is particularly appalling.  I'm also slightly troubled by what I see as a celebration of gluttony in a culture already suffering from severe food issues, overall. I went through eight Thanksgivings as a vegetarian, and it was interesting to see how much hostility I received from people who considered my refusal to eat turkey, or even turkey gravy or dressing that had been stuffed inside a turkey, as a shocking, defiant insult to one of their favorite holidays.  I'm curious what others think of Thanksgiving, both other 'Mericans and those outside.

[mystified]

I don't do the "Black Friday" thing, so for me it's a non-issue.

I do have one critique of the holiday. I often go to my Mother's farm to celebrate, which can be very relaxing. But, as the cooking takes 5-6 hours, things often get a little tense. The worst controversy is usually about whether or not the turkey is done. There are usually a few minor squabbles about that.

As a result, by the time I sit down to eat, I feel a little bit exhausted.

Then, halfway through the meal, someone usually insists on discussing what to do with the leftovers, which is weird, since we have all afternoon to take care of that and the meal took 6 hours to fix.

We need to hire a cooking staff to prepare the meal. That would solve a lot of the issues.

[Seren]

Speaking as a non american I can't comment on the commercialisation of Thanksgiving, but it sits closely in original spirit to our Harvest Festival - celebration of the generosity of the Earth (before it became christianised) and sitting just before the slaughter of most animals for food throughout the winter (can't afford to feed what would be eaten later).

If I recall correctly, please let me know if I am wrong, the Native Americans (more modern appelation being 1st Nations) celebrated thanksgiving and actually provided, via their generosity and knowledge of the land, the very means of the pilgrims survival in the first years without which they would have perished.

'Forgotten Founders' by Bruce E. Johanson http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/FFexcerpts.html looks at some very interesting historical developments in the development of the ideas of democracy.....

[SunDummy]

Bah, humbug...  I don't celebrate holidays in general, so take my comments with a grain of salt...

A few years ago, "Black Friday" was a term that only retail people used amongst themselves to describe how much they hated the day after Thanksgiving.  Now it's entered the mainstream, with retailers proudly advertising their Black Friday Doorbuster Specials.  It also used to signify the beginning of the 'shopping season' for Christmas, and had little to do with Thanksgiving other than proximity on the calendar.  Now it's become part of the Thanksgiving "holiday weekend" - our local paper interviewed some folks in a coffee shop about their plans for the day, and several (yes, several) people said that they get up at 4am to go shopping because "it's part of the tradition".    I hate shopping (that's what the internet is for), and my family doesn't do gifts for ANY occasion, so I can easily avoid all the commercialism BS.

The original Thanksgiving holiday, as I remember it from my youth, was an excuse for the family to get together and share a nice meal.  Relatives we rarely saw got together; we got to eat a feast we couldn't afford regularly; everyone had the day off; it was nice.  Now, it's all about rigid routines for most folks - shopping, football, blah blah blah.  Lucky for me, I don't live anywhere near my (or my wife's) families, so we don't have to deal with all the expectations (and I hate shopping; I hate football; but I especially hate Uncle Carl, who insists on playing the piano and bursting into song alllll damnnnn dayyyy...)  We avoid all the nonsense and go skiing by ourselves, 'cause there's no one else on the hill - it's perfect.

Don't Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving too, but for a different reason and on a different day?

[mgriffin]

Uncle Carl reads this Forum and you just hurt his feelings.

[SunDummy]

Uncle Carl reads this Forum and you just hurt his feelings.

 

Sorry, Uncle Carl, but you really should hear yourself...

[Bill Binkelman]

As a kid, I HATED Thanksgiving because I was a very picky eater and my uncle Les always gave me endless grief about it, shaming me at the table in front of everyone. He told all these racist jokes and all in all it was a terrible depressing affair - and my mother, who was a dear sweet loving woman and was the biggest influence of all on my writing, was just an outright LOUSY cook.

When I was married to my first wife (Barb) who had a big family, I HATED Thanksgiving with a passion. I didn't get to spend it with my folks, but had to go to the in-laws. The food there sucked (I once openly referred to their dinner rolls as "hockey pucks" - yeah, imagine me with no tact, LOL) and the relatives and I never got along as they opposed our getting married in the first place. It was a day filled with stress and no payoff.

When I got divorced and my folks died, I spent Thanksgiving alone - that was fun.....NOT! :-(

I dated a woman from 1990-1993 who had a big immediate family (3 brothers, 2 sisters) and their's was the first family I ever saw who ALL GOT ALONG on holidays and I enjoyed myself both on Thanksgiving and Christmas with them. They welcomed me from the first time and it was a relatively relaxing time.

Kathryn and I are both from small immediate families...her brother lives in Arizona and I've been estranged from my sister for over 5 years, so Thanksgiving is just the two of us and Mamie, our lab mix. We have a traditional Turkey dinner but don't go overboard, making just a small breast, not the whole bird, and we feast on it for  week. We just hang out, watch football (Kathryn loves it), build a fire in the afternoon and watch some movies in the evening after dinner. It's a low-key enjoyable affair, but it would be great to have another one or two couples join us....however, everyone else we know has familial obligations.

I actually think, in theory, Thanksgiving is a great day for family or friend get-togethers, but it's usually ruined by family dynamics or dysfunction or the stress of travel if you are separated by distance. I don't think it's overly commercialized...at least when compared to Christmas. But I'm old-fashioned and my "perfect" Thanksgiving would be right out of Currier and Ives (or, a more timely image would be a Terry Redlin painting).

As for Black Friday, well, that's the free market economy, I guess. I don't feel one way or the other about it. If people want to be at stores at 5 am, fine with me. After all, plenty of "normal" folks thought I was weird for lining up at 10:30 pm to get tickets for the midnight opening of Return of the King - a movie that ran until well after 3 am!!! The worst part of the holiday shopping thing is how competitive it can get in families. That's no longer an issue with Kathryn and I, but when I was married to Barb, the competition between family members to spend the most and buy the best gifts was sickening.

Finally, a sincere Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here on the Forum. If you travel, be safe. If you stay home, may your hearth be warm, your belly full, and your bed soft.

[Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)]

Interesting reading, especially as almost all of the negative comments I see center around a dislike of extended family and past traumas...

I do think Bill's views are closest to my own, old-fashioned, Currier and Ives and all.

I am a very nostalgic and romantic by nature when it comes to holidays and cherish those idealisms over commercialism any day.

Actually Thanksgiving is my absolute favorite holiday, followed closely by Easter. Christmas I enjoy on that day, but I am not a fan of the "Christmas season" which I associate as the day when many folks I know go nuts going deeper in debt for things they don't really need anyway...but I digress again. Essentially the less commercial and more family centered the holiday, the happier I am.

I enjoy a day when I can gather with my family and enjoy a wonderful meal, and reflect on what I am really thankful for. I have a wonderful wife and 3 children all of whom are my greatest joys, so what is not to be thankful for.

Like Bill said, for me I want Thanksgiving to be Currier and Ives, I want Christmas to be Charles Dickens and Its a wonderful life and those are the mindsets I strive for on the holidays, but thats just me.

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it!

Paul

[Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)]

A few years ago, "Black Friday" was a term that only retail people used amongst themselves to describe how much they hated the day after Thanksgiving.

From Wikipidia:

The term "Black Friday" originated in Philadelphia in reference to the heavy traffic on that day (see Origin of the name "Black Friday" below). More recently, merchants and the media have used it instead to refer to the beginning of the period in which retailers go from being in the red (i.e., posting a loss on the books) to being in the black (i.e., turning a profit).

[hdibrell]

I've always enjoyed Thanksgiving. It is my favorite holiday. Coming from a military family, we couldn't always get together with extended family on the holidays, but we would always celebrate with just us or friends over for the meal. Some of my favorite memories were of when my father was in battalion command. He always wanted to make sure that the troops left behind that couldn't get passes for the holiday or were too far from home would get to experience something like a family get together. We would eat Thanksgiving dinner with the troops in the mess hall. I've told this to many people over the years and they think that sounds terrible. It was great! The mess hall would be decorated and the cooks would out do themselves with the meal. All of the other kids whose parents were in the unit would be there. We would eat the big meal, then us kids would go outside and play. later the adults would come out and play football with us. It was really a good time. I don't know if they still do things like that or not.  My father is gone now, but my mother lives a few hours north of here in the same town as one of my brothers and his family. We get together with them and my aunt and uncle and  two of my cousins and families almost every year. It is something we really look forward to. There is, of course, too much food and lot's of football watching and visiting. Later we go outside and play ball with the youngsters and try and work off a few calories. This year, however, Kathy and I won't be able to go. I have to work the day before and after thanksgiving so we will be making dinner for just the two of us (and Sparky). This will be the first time Kathy has tried to make the meal in 18 years (since her medical problems), so I'm sure I will be heavily involved in the process. As far as the giving thanks part, we try to never lose sight of all of the blessings we have and it is always an important part of the day. I am thankful that I have a family which not only loves one another , but genuinely likes each other, as well. I will really miss being with them this Thanksgiving.     Harry

[Bill Binkelman]

I've always enjoyed Thanksgiving. It is my favorite holiday. Coming from a military family, we couldn't always get together with extended family on the holidays, but we would always celebrate with just us or friends over for the meal. Some of my favorite memories were of when my father was in battalion command. He always wanted to make sure that the troops left behind that couldn't get passes for the holiday or were too far from home would get to experience something like a family get together. We would eat Thanksgiving dinner with the troops in the mess hall. I've told this to many people over the years and they think that sounds terrible. It was great! The mess hall would be decorated and the cooks would out do themselves with the meal. All of the other kids whose parents were in the unit would be there. We would eat the big meal, then us kids would go outside and play. later the adults would come out and play football with us. It was really a good time. (snip)    

I dunno, Harry. I think that sounds pretty cool...and your dad was awesome in thinking of his troops and the possibility they'd feel lonely or lonesome. Cool story. What part of the country was this in? (just curious). Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[Wayne Higgins]

We're havin' a duck!  I'm baking sweet potato pie and pecan pie tonight.

YUMMY!

BTW, EVERYTHING is commercialized in America.

[michael sandler]

As an atheist, I don't give thanks to a deity, but it is nice to gather family and friends and be thankful for what you have. That being said, the holiday season on the whole exposes the barnacled underbelly of capitalism. The pressure to shop and spend makes the holiday season a stress for those who wish to participate. It's grotesque. Ramming your way through traffic jams and crowded malls to buy things you can't afford for people you don't even like that much...all to honor the birth of someone I can't help but think would be appalled by it all.

Not to be a Scrooge or anything 

MikeS

[mgriffin]

That reminds me -- what happened to the rule about retailers not displaying Christmas stuff until after Thanksgiving?  I saw several stores in October with both Halloween and Christmas sections, and even more stores this month with Christmas items displayed all along. 

[Seren]

That reminds me -- what happened to the rule about retailers not displaying Christmas stuff until after Thanksgiving?  I saw several stores in October with both Halloween and Christmas sections, and even more stores this month with Christmas items displayed all along. 

Soon it will be spend on everything all year round - not a good thing as it takes the specialness of each festival/time away and further makes it a commercial enterprise - the original meaning of all of them was clan/tribe/family celebrating life (or the ancestors as in Samhain)

[Sunbreak Music]

I really try not to overthink these sorts of things, lol.

I'm for anything that's a celebration (unless there are ritual sacrifices of living things--then I have to think about it).

[hdibrell]

I've always enjoyed Thanksgiving. It is my favorite holiday. Coming from a military family, we couldn't always get together with extended family on the holidays, but we would always celebrate with just us or friends over for the meal. Some of my favorite memories were of when my father was in battalion command. He always wanted to make sure that the troops left behind that couldn't get passes for the holiday or were too far from home would get to experience something like a family get together. We would eat Thanksgiving dinner with the troops in the mess hall. I've told this to many people over the years and they think that sounds terrible. It was great! The mess hall would be decorated and the cooks would out do themselves with the meal. All of the other kids whose parents were in the unit would be there. We would eat the big meal, then us kids would go outside and play. later the adults would come out and play football with us. It was really a good time. (snip)    

I dunno, Harry. I think that sounds pretty cool...and your dad was awesome in thinking of his troops and the possibility they'd feel lonely or lonesome. Cool story. What part of the country was this in? (just curious). Anyway, thanks for sharing.

My dad was a great guy. Taught me alot. When I was in junior high, my dad was XO (2nd in command)  of an aviation battalion at Fort Hood, Texas. Yes, that Ft. Hood. Later in high school he was commander of an aviation battalion at Fort Rucker, Alabama. We also did that sort of thing at a smaller unit level in Japan.   Harry

[1000snakes]

I was born in California and up until 6 years ago celebrated Thanksgiving there. In my youth I remember many of them as being an enjoyable day with family and friends, however as a young adult with girlfriends and jobs and divorces the innocence was lost. I experienced the dysfunctional family stress and the ugly retail side of this holiday as well as Christmas. To this day I find the whole holiday thing pretty repulsive as far as the shop until you drop mentality.
I am in British Columbia, Canada now and have spent 6 slightly more traditional although not perfectly storybook Thanksgiving and Christmas days with my wife, 2 stepchildren and her folks and our friends. Here there is also the capitalistic madness that plagues North America in general but we don't get too sucked into it. Thanksgiving is celebrated on the 2nd Tuesday of October in most of Canada and as far as I know, is based on the gratitude for a successful harvest and similar First Nations traditions much like the United States. I never was a football fan and am not about to adopt hockey or any other sport as a religion so that aspect has never been or will be part of my holiday ritual.
Happy Thanksgiving to my American family and friends. I am blessed to have you in my life and am truly grateful!
Peace, Kirk

[judd stephens]

Well, I never celebrated holidays in my youth because of my parents' religion.  On the one hand there were the occasional feelings of discomfort of not fitting in, but the benefit of growing up that way is not to get all psycho during this season. 

As far as Black Friday goes, it's corny, it's stressful, it's ugly, and I don't bother with that, especially in the retail stores.  I don't blame people for wanting to get a good deal, and I don't blame the stores for trying to make money.... as long as they're not hurting someone.  We're all free to shop or not to shop on that day or any day, and I don't think any mandate about when to shop or advertise is going to win the hearts of minds of people... that's about as bad as mandating to people what to celebrate and  how.  As a Massage Therapist I do some chair massage at a Whole Foods on Fridays, and will probably make some decent income that day, as I usually do during the holidays with my profession.  People ARE stressed, and people see me as part of that solution.  You might say that's the shiny happy front side of capitalism 

Also I like watching pro football, but I can't remember the last good game on a Thanksgiving.  Maybe if they made it a tradition to give the Lions a 15 point handicap, it might be interesting.

By the way it's interesting that Native American is considered the politically correct term.  I can see where "Indian" is just plain wrong and having the word native in the name is more respectful, but America itself is a name that originated from the Italian explorer most likely.  I bet some Native Americans still see this type of name as a compromise, and calling them just natives probably implies something primitive. 

[Bill Binkelman]

(snip)

By the way it's interesting that Native American is considered the politically correct term.  I can see where "Indian" is just plain wrong and having the word native in the name is more respectful, but America itself is a name that originated from the Italian explorer most likely.  I bet some Native Americans still see this type of name as a compromise, and calling them just natives probably implies something primitive. 

That's an excellent observation and got me to thinking...in some ways, calling the indigenous people of this continent "native Americans" is tantamount to calling all people from Asia, well, Asians, instead of identifying them by their country, e.g. Vietnamese, Chinese, Hmong, Cambodian, etc etc etc. Here in America, why can't we familiarize ourselves with the tribal names, i.e. Lakota, Ojibway, Pueblo, Chippewa, Algonquin, Cherokee, Apache...after all, their domains were referred to as "the Indian nations" weren't they, in days past? Wouldn't that be the respectful thing to do?