Author Topic: Paypal is the devil  (Read 6419 times)

Numina

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Paypal is the devil
« on: March 22, 2011, 07:50:18 AM »
Oh man.... I am really ticked.  PayPal just sent me a notice that I am using the P2P option too much (the sending money as a "gift" method). The notice threatens to disable permanently my P2P ability if I receive any further P2P that is for merchandise. Dammit! Bastards! How the heck am I supposed to do things like receive royalties and the occasional payment without triggering paypal to turn P2P off?  Anyone else get one of these messages?

BTW, I researched it and the message is legit. Gha! More stress!

Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 08:03:30 AM »
Here's the message:

Dear Jesse Sola,

We recently changed our pricing so that all PayPal customers can receive
money from friends and family within the US for free. PayPal merchants
receiving money as payment for a purchase, continue to incur fees.

We’re not sure if you are aware of this, but we noticed that some of
your customers are sending you personal payments for purchases of items
or services. Unfortunately, this violates our rules, and we need your
help correcting this. Please don’t ask or allow your customers to use
personal payments to pay for their purchases.

If we continue to see such activity after April 5, 2011, we may have to
disable your ability to receive personal payments, and then you will pay
fees for all money received through PayPal.

You can find more information about payment types and fees in sections
4.2 and 8 of our User Agreement – just click “Legal Agreements” at the
bottom of any PayPal page.

If you have any questions, concerns, or think we may have made a
mistake, please contact us at P2P@paypal.com. Thank you for helping us
resolves this matter.


Sincerely:

Personal to Personal Team

PayPal. Inc

mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 08:31:46 AM »
Jesse, you're saying Paypal is the devil because they're asking you to stop skirting their system, which allows them to get paid for the service they provide. They allow people to designate some payments as "personal" as a favor to their account holders, to let people occasionally do things like send money between friends or family and avoid fees for non-professional transactions.

But if you're selling CDs and telling customers to designate all payments as "personal" then you're the one screwing Paypal over, not the other way around. I don't love paying a percentage of our sales to Paypal or to our credit card processing company, but I also don't think it would be fair to ask them to provide those services to us for free.
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SunDummy

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 08:38:30 AM »
Does Google Checkout allow you to receive payments, or just make them?  Might be a good alternative.
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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 08:42:58 AM »
Google Checkout has fees just like Paypal or a credit card processor. They might be slightly less, though. You won't find any payment gateway that operates without any kind of fee.
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SunDummy

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 09:05:30 AM »
I thought Google Checkout was free in the beginning...   I assume they quickly realized that free doesn't work...
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mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 09:07:42 AM »
Google Checkout is also a huge pain in the ass to set up, compared to creating a Paypal account which just takes a few seconds.
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Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 09:45:13 AM »
Geez mike. What gives? Shocked you are so defensive of PP, gotta say I was disapointed in your response.

I receive a royalty payment every couple months or so, and I sell gear on Craigslist, and occassionally someone asks to buy a huge lot of releases for a discount. In those cases you're damn straight I avoid the paypal fees. If I sell on eBay or people place an order with a paypal button then I pay the fees.  Why the heck should I have to pay fees if the buyer agrees to risk their payment by not being covered under buyer protection if we both agree to that transaction?

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 10:03:39 AM »
Sorry you're disappointed, Jesse, but I think you're in the wrong here. You wanting to prevent Paypal from being compensated for their services is no different from a music pirate wanting to gain access to your music without compensating you.

It's the same "Why should I have to pay if I can find a way around it? I don't want to pay, so I shouldn't have to," mentality. As someone who sells music, do you really think the dividing line between "should pay" and "shouldn't pay" is whether or not the potential buyer can get away with not paying? If you see a difference, maybe it's only because you're on the opposite side of the transaction.

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Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 10:18:05 AM »
Wow. Well, I couldn't disagree more with you and resent you saying I'm screwing them over or it's akin to piracy.

So, just to be clear, if you sold a guitar to a personal friend of yours but they could only conveniently or quickly pay you by paypal that you would accept the fees in that case?

And if someone is sending you a royalty payment statement which you have to pay taxes on you would still pay the PP fees?

In my opinion, these are different than merchandise sales to/from individuals.

I will concede to your point on CD sales, but as I mentioned, this is a very rare occurrence (like twice a year) and there is a good percentage of profit taken up in a PP fee if I accepted it that way in a discounted package - I will just have to build in the paypal fees to make up for it. Be that as it may, I hear ya there. But I don't like being accused of screwing or skirting a system and am disappointed in your choice of words toward me.  I'm not a con artist.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 10:40:39 AM by Numina »

Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 10:50:16 AM »
Just a note that I honestly had no idea that it was illegal (or otherwise against policy) to receive a payment as a "gift" from someone if the buyer agrees to it. Again, if a person buys via P2P of their own choice, then I'm not sure why I am in the wrong.  I never coerce, force, or otherwise limit people (in the dozen or so times I've accepted a payment this way over the past 5 years) if they choose to pay via P2P.  Also, in the P2P section, there are 5 choices:

Gift
Living expense
Payment owed
Other
Cash Advance

So, what would "payment owed" be?  Wouldn't that qualify as a payment from a friend (or even an acquaintance) who owed me for something (or is "payment owed" supposed to mean that I lent someone some money and they're paying me back)?  Not to mention the completely open-ended "other".  I just don't see where I am doing anything wrong quite frankly.

mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 11:03:35 AM »
Well, I figured you'd get offended Jesse, so I should have just let it go. I'm sorry if my argument made you feel attacked but I was trying to make the point that people who offer goods (even intangible goods like electronic services or downloadable content) and want to get paid sometimes encounter people who would rather get the goods for free. In that sense, this is the flip side of the music piracy debate.

I was going to go into more detail about how I interpret Paypal's policies or use their services myself, but that isn't really important. I think you're reading insults way beyond what I intended... so I'm going to drop this.

If others want to debate Paypal's personal/gift option, they can go ahead.
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Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 11:27:39 AM »
If you knew I'd be offended they why would you say I am screwing PP over. If I had said that to you or anyone else that didn't know they were doing anything wrong they'd be right to be offended. Heck, I even conceded on the big cd packages.  But a sale of a piece of gear between personal friends ought not be considered a fee-able transaction... Is fee-able a word?

SunDummy

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 11:30:27 AM »
My two cents:  Paypal adds value by giving buyers and sellers convenience, and they should be compensated for that added value.  If I want to send my brother $50, I can mail him a check, and he can deal with cashing it, depositing it, etc.  Or I can send the money via Paypal, and with a couple clicks it's in his account.  Shouldn't Paypal collect a fee for providing us with this service? 

Banks have traditionally given away services (free checking, etc.) because their costs of providing these services can be recouped by investing your money, and earning interest on it; that's why they have minimum balance requirements:  to ensure that there is enough money for them to invest to get a return.  Paypal works the same way, to an extent; however, they don't make investments (loans to other customers) to make money, and they don't require a minimum balance to use their service - they charge a percentage on each transaction.

We can argue whether their fees are too much for what they provide; but in a free market, we are free to go elsewhere if we don't like it.  There are plenty of Paypal Sucks websites - clearly some people don't like them.  But charging for hteir services hardly seems like a good reason, imo.

And for the record, I don't think you're a thief, Jesse!   :D

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 11:47:31 AM »
Yeah, I guess I'm with Mike on this. Paypal offers a very useful service for free (quickly transfering money to friends/family/etc for free). But there is no reason why transactions involving the selling of goods should be free. Its reasonable that they charge for their services and your convenience. You can always have people give you cash or send a cheque if that doesn't suit.

The question of whether they charge too much is another issue.
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mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 12:28:13 PM »
I started out mostly meaning to tease you, Jesse, and didn't intend to call you evil or a thief or the exact equivalent of a pirate. I mentioned the music pirate's mindset as of a way of sort of half-winkingly making you think about the similarity between what you were saying about Paypal, and what a kid who downloads music says about "the music industry."

I do think Paypal deserves compensation for their services (though as others have said, maybe their share ought to be smaller) and I stand by my original intention which was to nudge you into recognizing that maybe you should look at the Paypal fee situation from the other side.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 12:30:28 PM by mgriffin »
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mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 01:32:55 PM »
Hey, everybody, Jesse is out seeing OMD live today -- that's Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, young 'uns, a electronic pop band from the 80s.  ;) 

So he's out partying at the Hard Rock Cafe, and drunk-posting to Facebook, and hasn't been able to follow up on this topic... but he wanted to make sure everybody understood, there are no hard feelings between me & Jesse. I see Jesse as sort of a little brother, in the sense that a little brother is an annoying, pesky little dope who needs a noogie and a wedgie, one after the other. Have fun at the show, Jesse!
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jkn

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2011, 01:47:42 PM »
Random thoughts...

+ Jesse, yes - I believe his wife gives him a noogie every Thursday.  It's part of his "therapy".  I'm not sure about wedgies.

+ I saw OMD in the 80's - opening for... ummm...  Erasure I think.  Maybe.  Fun show.

+ If you can't tell your little brother he's wrong, who can you tell?

+ I have no little brothers.   I am however, a little brother myself. 
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mgriffin

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 01:56:05 PM »
I have an actual little brother so I'm well-practiced in dealing out noogies and wedgies, and even worse abuses when called-for.
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Numina

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Re: Paypal is the devil
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2011, 02:25:42 PM »
Aw shucks... this could be the Schlitz talkin' but I love you man, not in a gay way, just in the big older brother way. Like really old... so old you're almost a father figure, but not in that Catholic-pervy-father way, more like father and son. :D