Author Topic: WebDogme  (Read 3659 times)

mgriffin

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WebDogme
« on: April 02, 2008, 09:10:18 AM »
Heard of the Dogme film movement?  Lars Von Trier and a group of (mostly Dutch) directors agreeing to certain austerity measures to keep their films more "real" or natural?  Rules like "use only natural light," and "No overdubbing, use only sounds that so on.

Well, I think it's an interesting set of rules, but I'm glad most directors don't adhere to it.  I like special effects, and pretty-looking films, all that kind of stuff.

I found this WebDogme variation, a similar set of rules for web design, and thought it was interesting.  If you're like me, and spend time thinking about the decisions (and mistakes) people make when they design web sites, you might find it interesting.

http://www.blackbeltjones.com/dogme.html
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kawera

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 07:00:18 AM »
Heard of the Dogme film movement?  Lars Von Trier and a group of (mostly Dutch) directors agreeing to certain austerity measures to keep their films more "real" or natural?  Rules like "use only natural light," and "No overdubbing, use only sounds that so on.


I apologize in advance for nitpicking, but they were Danish. :)

Here's their "vow": http://www.dogme95.dk/the_vow/vow.html

A few of the 10 points in WebDogme01 sound like they're coming straight from Jakob Nielsen. Not that that's so bad, so nonetheless an interesting find.

Altus

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 09:57:16 AM »
Curious... Most of these rules were used when I made "movies" with my friends when we were 16.  But in my case, these rules are in place due to lack of a budget.  ;)
The problem with these rules is the way lenses and film (or CCDs in the case of digital video) record images is nothing like the way the eye sees a scene.  You need light to fill detail in shadows that the eye can see, yet the camera cannot.  In the case of only using location audio with no overdubs, if there's the sound of a plane in one shot and they cut to another angle, suddenly that edit is going to be very obvious, jarring and NOT realistic to the viewer.  If they go the route of making no edits, that could mean another "Russian Ark".  Technically amazing, but what a bore.

I'm a fan of Lars Von Trier's work ('Dogville', 'Dancer in the Dark' & 'Breaking the Waves' are among my favourites) and I get why he's interested in putting these rules in place, but personally it just seems silly to limit yourself so drastically.
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mgriffin

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 05:06:14 PM »
Oops, Danish... Dutch... sorry!

I think the Dogme film movement is borderline silly too, and if I'm not mistaken, even Lars Von Trier makes some films that do not adhere to these rules.

Anyway, I thought it was funny that someone came up with similar austerity measures for web design.  Of course, many web sites could stand to benefit from some of the rules in that list, but I can't imagine anyone would argue the web would be a better place if everyone's web site were so stripped-down that way.
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SunDummy

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 02:53:33 PM »
Quote
I thought it was funny that someone came up with similar austerity measures for web design

Slight thread drift; what's with the "no WYSIWYG" coding mentality?  I see this all the time on forums, and even hear it from programmers.  I don't get it; who cares how a site gets made?  Isn't the end result what matters?  When I view a site, I don't see the code; it's not like 'The Matrix' where streams of green code substitute for real life... ???

(disclaimer:  my coding skills are weak at best; WYSIWYG is a necessity for me...)
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mgriffin

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 03:14:49 PM »
The WYSIWYS bias is based on several things. 

First, it's a snobby bit of coder's superiority, sort of like "I understand the HTML code and you just cheat with a program that does everything for you."  It's just another way of saying "I know something you don't know." This is very prevalent among techie/coder types... "Even though you have a tool that lets you do some of the same thing I can do, you don't understand what's underlying that tool so I'm better than you."

Second, I would say a very strong argument could be made that WYSIWYG tools create inferior, clumsy, often bloated HTML code.  A web designer who doesn't understand HTML might come up with a block of code that looks just the same as another guy's code, but it might be much, much longer than it needs to be, might not be truly standards-compliant (though it might display OK in most browsers), might have problems that aren't immediately obvious.

For example, I was looking into the HTML source of the web site of one of the labels whose CDs we sell on the Hypnos store.  The label owner, whose web site looks perfectly good in the web browser, encouraged me to "grab" the URL of his hosted MP3 audio clips, and link to them in his label's CD listing on the Hypnos store.  In other words, I was just going to go to his site, hit "view source," and find the URLs for the MP3 files so could point to them, and not have to create my own MP3 sample clips for those CDs.  Nothing strange there... but when I looked into the HTML code for this label's web site, I found the kind of bizarre HTML artifacts that can only be created by a WYSIWYG web design program.

Where my own HTML code might have said:

<font color="yellow">Artist name - Album title</font>

.... this other label's HTML code for the equivalent single line of text display, might have read something like this:

<font></font><font color="yellow"><strong></strong></font>
<font color="yellow"></font>
<font></font><font color="yellow"></font><font color="yellow"></font>
<font color="yellow">Artist name - Album title</font><strong></strong>


This web site's HTML will display basically the same thing as my HTML but it's easy to see the difference.  Multiply this kind of sloppy, flabby HTML across every line of text on a web site and it's easy to see how a WYSIWYG application can generate a 30kb file of HTML that could be coded by a person who understood HTML, using Windows Notepad or Mac Textedit, in a 1kb file.

In the example I give above, there's nothing really wrong with the second block of HTML other than its bloat, but there are many cases where a WYSIWYG app actually gives you text that's just plain wrong.  I briefly took a look at Nvu and I won't make that mistake again.
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SunDummy

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Re: WebDogme
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 04:11:33 PM »
Ah, that makes sense.  That also explains why the code I see on other people's sites is often very different from what I'm using, but giving the same result.

I use Dreamweaver Ultradev, just 'cause we have it at work; I like that it gives me a split-screen of WYSIWYG and code, so I can see the changes right away.  Maybe it's a crutch, but hell, I don't do it for a living, so I'll take all the help I can get.   ;)

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