Author Topic: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?  (Read 5167 times)

mgriffin

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 09:08:03 AM »
Nobody should blame an artist for a limited edition selling out if it was the label's decision to release a quantity too small to satisfy immediate demand.

Also, listeners/customers should realize that it's much easier for artists like Steve Roach and Robert Rich to keep everything in print, because they sell a lot more copies, thus a repressing of 500 or 1,000 CDs is much easier decision to make.

I think the best thing for the artist, the label and the customer is when editions are made available that "fit" with the artist and label's ability to sell a given quantity over a reasonable period of time. Most people understand that sometimes there isn't sufficient demand to justify a re-pressing of something that's out of print... at least not immediately.

The problem comes up when labels make the decision to press a too-small quantity in order to generate a frenzy of short-term buying, and everyone who missed out on that initial window of availability is screwed. This harms the artist too, because there are people who want to hear the music and can't, and I would argue it even harms the label itself --  because if they had planned better, they could have sold more copies and made more money. Clearly it hurts the listener, unless they're poised to buy the moment the release comes out.
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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 09:14:27 AM »
Thanks for comments Will.  I liked the "pitiful and cheap" description of CDR's!   :P

mgriffin

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 09:18:52 AM »
I agree with Will that CDRs are better than nothing. Pressed CDs are more desireable.

I don't know that I agree that a download-only release is better than a CDR release. If you buy a CDR, you can rip the disc as soon as you receive it, and even if the disc fails after 10 years, you'll still have the files. Best of both worlds, I say. How is download-only better? Maybe if it's cheaper, I guess.
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APK

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 09:45:58 AM »
 "pitiful and cheap"  ?????

A CDR sounds the same. Can last a similar length of time if made well using good disks. And will usually cost more per CD than a pressed CD. Usually takes more work to create. And is very useful for short runs and re-releases. They also empower the artist, rather than the pressing plant. I could go on ...

It feeds into a contemporary mythos ... like people do who say "I'll never buy downloads."
Many people are past that.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 10:18:45 AM by APK »
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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2012, 10:45:35 AM »
However, I think pre-orders should not be done strictly because it is a limited edition.

Hi Will.  I agree with this, too.  The only exception I could possibly see to this if the packaging is elaborate or must be made to order.  BTW,  I have one of the 50 copies of the Celer-SIeline release.  I also picked up the virtual release so that I wouldn't disturb the artwork in the package. It reminded me of Calder's mobiles.

Forrest
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 10:51:08 AM by ffcal »

phobos

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2012, 11:34:20 AM »
"pitiful and cheap"  ?????

A CDR sounds the same. Can last a similar length of time if made well using good disks. And will usually cost more per CD than a pressed CD. Usually takes more work to create. And is very useful for short runs and re-releases. They also empower the artist, rather than the pressing plant. I could go on ...

It feeds into a contemporary mythos ... like people do who say "I'll never buy downloads."
Many people are past that.
Well said Anthony 8)
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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2012, 04:17:48 PM »
CDR's are better than nothing.  That's about the only advantage I see for the buyer/listener, though they certainly do have advantages for the person/label releasing it as previously pointed out.  There are CDR's I've bought recently that will not play at all in my portable player due to the "sticky" type labels on them; even the silk-screened type labels on Kunaki made discs don't play in my portable.  CD's don't have this problem and never will.  Not to stir up another huge discussion about CD vs. CDR (done to death on this forum), but for the consumer CD's are better, we'll leave it at that.  I have a ton of CDR's in my collection, and most of them have not caused problems.  I know a lot of great music would never have gotten released had it not been for the CDR, so I see their value (although nowadays with downloads prevalent CDR's aren't as useful or necessary to get the artist's music released).  And I still buy CDR releases because I like having the artwork and for the collector value.   

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 04:48:43 PM »
Yes, as Mike also said, pressed CDs are preferred.

I think the thing with CDR releases is to have some good design and decent artwork.
Way back I used stick on labels for DataObscura. They can look good if done well on glossy stock, but there were playing issues. So I print directly on the disks.

Of course, on the graphic front, there are pretty awful pressed releases too. It may be pressed ... but that says little about the quality of the music or of the graphics.

For me, the medium is not the message, no matter how nice it is dressed up ... the music is.

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Celer

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2012, 05:45:23 PM »
@mgriffin Nobody should blame an artist for a limited edition selling out if it was the label's decision to release a quantity too small to satisfy immediate demand.

Also, listeners/customers should realize that it's much easier for artists like Steve Roach and Robert Rich to keep everything in print, because they sell a lot more copies, thus a repressing of 500 or 1,000 CDs is much easier decision to make.

I think the best thing for the artist, the label and the customer is when editions are made available that "fit" with the artist and label's ability to sell a given quantity over a reasonable period of time. Most people understand that sometimes there isn't sufficient demand to justify a re-pressing of something that's out of print... at least not immediately.

The problem comes up when labels make the decision to press a too-small quantity in order to generate a frenzy of short-term buying, and everyone who missed out on that initial window of availability is screwed. This harms the artist too, because there are people who want to hear the music and can't, and I would argue it even harms the label itself --  because if they had planned better, they could have sold more copies and made more money. Clearly it hurts the listener, unless they're poised to buy the moment the release comes out.


Agreed!

I don't know that I agree that a download-only release is better than a CDR release.

Just for me personally a CDR (sometimes) is better than a download. For me, downloads, while they good for archival and for keeping a permanent copy of something to listen to, I don't feel any attachment to it. Having some kind of physical object is almost always better.

Unfortunately though, most CDRs come in packages that are cheap too.. so I don't know if it's really better or not.

@APK A CDR sounds the same

Yes, of course. But a high-quality download sounds the same, too. I agree that it can empower artists, but only on a certain scale. For example, CDRs are great, because it allows anyone to create small editions of their music at home to share with others. It isn't possible for just anyone to press 500 or even 300 CDs, so for that is is good. What is bad is when labels or artists are purposefully cheap, when they could (or should) be pressing CDs, and instead press CDRs, with cheap packaging.

Another benefit about home-making CDRs, is that you can be creative with packaging as well. I see a lot of CDR releases that have really uncreative packaging. Maybe digipaks and jewel cases that come with regular CDs aren't always interesting (design-wise), but at least the quality of the printing is even.

@ffcal I agree with this too. Special/odd packaging and for more creative homemade designs, this is okay for CDRs. For example you mentioned my release Sieline, which would have been impossible in any other way. Firstly the actual package itself would only fit a 3" CDR, and 3" CDRs at the time were not available (to my knowledge) as silver CDs, or there would have been a quantity minimum. So for 4 of them that would be a ridiculous price.. obviously the only way for that. And the package, custom with a die-cut and painted, for me it was much more special being able to make something unique like that.

Also a good example is American Tapes. Their releases are always limited, and rather obscure, sometimes even very cheaply made, but there is character in that garage-made crusty style. It's one of the few CDR-prone labels I still buy from.

What is bad about CDRs and packaging, is when labels stamp the band name on a Verbatim CDR, use a cardboard package with no original design or unique character, and label it as an album release, selling it as the same price of a normal, factory pressed CD.


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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2012, 04:01:26 AM »
Not wishing to hijack this thread and considering that the CD / CD-R issue has been discussed to death here, but I feel I should comment on the following:

'CDRs are barely worth publishing' and that they are 'pitiful and cheap'

Neither statements are true in my view, The CD-Rs I've had made up aren't cheap to make at all. More to the point. APK made the valid point about the music being the message. The time spent on creating music should dwarf the time spent on releasing the music and the accompanying medium considerations.


Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 07:23:20 AM »

@Julio Di Benedetto @mgriffin Also, if you're the kind of artist who can quickly sell 200-300 discs, why not do pressed CDs instead of CDRs?

If the label won't press a CD and will only do a CDR, the artist doesn't have much choice. It's the labels' decision. My way or the highway sortof approach. It's tough enough just finding labels to release something period.


Hi Will.....I realize you are at the mercy so to speak of the label, but does there come a point where you take control yourself when the labels release standards are not what you want.  I don't intend to make this sound egotistical because label interest in an artist is a beautiful thing regardless of the end product.   The financial & PR responsibility of doing it yourself become much greater, and I can see this would be a deterrent.   Mind you I can't say how each label works regarding who pays for production cost etc......so?  A Celer release is exciting for itself not because of the label that releases it. IF you choose to release a limited edition rubber stamped Verbatim CDR, your listers will buy it because of the music not the packaging which was a point well made by APK.

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2012, 08:07:02 AM »
"Time spent creating the music should dwarf releasing the music and medium considerations" ??  So you're saying It's ok to release something cheap as long as the recording was labored over?  I've got stuff in my collection where the music is great but was issued on CDR with a sticky label in slim jewelcase with single sheet insert, and to be honest that lessens the impact of the release for me.  It doesn't mean I'm not still going to buy it but the medium is disappointing compared to what it could have been.

petekelly

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 08:15:44 AM »
I didn't say that at all.
Most artists aren't 'cheap', they try the best they can. Saying that, there isn't an excuse for releasing something knowingly 'shoddy'.

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 04:36:36 PM »
I agree, most artists aren't cheap.  But some ideas of "classy" or "quality" packaging and presentation aren't always successful.  Everyone's definition of what is good is different.  Don't take this personally.  I never fingerpointed to any one artist.  It's not a personal attack.   :)

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2012, 07:00:45 PM »
Not wishing to hijack this thread and considering that the CD / CD-R issue has been discussed to death here, but I feel I should comment on the following:

'CDRs are barely worth publishing' and that they are 'pitiful and cheap'

Neither statements are true in my view, The CD-Rs I've had made up aren't cheap to make at all. More to the point.

It's purely a matter of opinion. Music is of course first and foremost the message, but as an artist, you should also care about the presentation. I don't think ALL CDRs are pitiful and cheap, but a lot of them are. It's all how they're presented. Some people put a lot of effort into it to make it unique and special, and others don't.

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2012, 07:06:58 PM »
@Julio Di Benedetto

Hi Will.....I realize you are at the mercy so to speak of the label, but does there come a point where you take control yourself when the labels release standards are not what you want.  I don't intend to make this sound egotistical because label interest in an artist is a beautiful thing regardless of the end product.   The financial & PR responsibility of doing it yourself become much greater, and I can see this would be a deterrent.   Mind you I can't say how each label works regarding who pays for production cost etc......so?  A Celer release is exciting for itself not because of the label that releases it. IF you choose to release a limited edition rubber stamped Verbatim CDR, your listers will buy it because of the music not the packaging which was a point well made by APK.

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it. It's true that a lot of people to buy things just for the music, but presentation is important to me too. A lot of labels also think that they can get a bigger name artist to release something on their label, package it poorly and cheaply, and sell it out immediately for the same price as a regular CD. This is just them profiteering off the artist and customers.

It is true that as an artist when you see things like this happening, you have to make a stand and do things yourself. I try to do that also, but I can't afford the costs of doing much more than one at a time. Unfortunately money doesn't always match output..

And working with labels, when labels approach you, it's hard to know whether they'll do what they say or not, you just have to take a chance or not. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in those situations guide them along as best as possible. Yet some still don't come through, and that's just the risk. It's just as bad for small artists as it is big artists when that happens.

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2012, 12:08:39 PM »
Wow, I go away for awhile on the forum and a big thread like this hits.

as a listener:
--------------------------------------
CD's - used to love them
CDR's - used to love them
Downloads - my preferred listening now

Limited Editions - I thought it was cool in the 80's with my Depeche Mode limited 12" releases... but haven't really cared since unless it's a close friend releasing it.

as a label owner
--------------------------------------
CD's - totally support any artist on rM that wants to press a CD
CDR's - same as CD
Downloads - all of our releases are downloadable

Limited Editions - unless an artist has a really good idea / reason - I doubt we'll do any.  I have heard rumblings of some special packaging type releases, which of course, I support.  I do think they should still be available in a non-limited form.



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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2012, 07:33:08 PM »
Just got an email about a new Ishq release.  Considering I just spent $20 on a new Ishq disc which came out last week (on his own label, Virtual), in addition to a boatload of other music, my wallet hasn't had time to recover.  This release is called "Lyght" and is a 100-copies CDR, which does not get released until 12-21-2012. 

Releasing a CDR on the day the world is supposed to end seems odd to me. Maybe release it a couple days earlier so you can get to the bank!  ;D
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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2012, 11:24:29 AM »
And actually listen to it before you're vaporized during the Pole Shift.  ;D

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Re: Limited Edition pre-orders: love 'em or hate 'em?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2012, 12:32:59 PM »
Remember the Merzbow limited edition of one CD, which came "packaged" in the CD player of a Mercedes-Benz car, which was included?

Austere and I have discussed doing an ultra-limited release of zero copies.  We'd think about the music, map it all out in our heads, then never record it.  We never got around to doing it, which means, I guess, that we DID do it.  If you don't want a copy, paypal me $9.99.   ;D
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