Author Topic: Digital to analog converters  (Read 3570 times)

Immersion

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #120 on: November 27, 2013, 05:15:20 PM »
I think people who have disagreed with you in this thread have said quite a bit more to you than "I have more experience," but you seem not to process what they saying or just dismiss it out of hand.  Maybe you should re-read some of the responses, especially Paul's detailed ones.  There's no secret society here, but if I were you I wouldn't be too proud about being a contrarian for contrariness' sake.  If you're seeking some help, you're going about it the wrong way.

Forrest

well problem is, no people have responded to my post, only a more "general" answer...where things are taken out of it's context.  But no detailed answer..that is why the whole discussions become some what foggy..

I actually see no problem with disagreeing, have you ever been an pro audio forum before ? You will see this all the time even with top producers they have widely different opinion about things.  Some people seem to be like "gods" over here some kind of oracle with such superior knowledge.

I do not see it like that I see like this that every one has different taste.
some one like soundtoys some one does not, personally I can't understand why one should lift this effects bundle to the skies when it so clearly compromise the sound...but as long as the person is happy... it is always like this..sound is an highly subjective experience so we do not experience the same things obviously due to many factors...  But I do not like the people are being treated like gods in here just because they have released a album, gods that you are not allowed to question or touch, when they say things you do not agree with. I guess since most people are artists here they have the  need to some kind of self censorship in order to portray their own reputation. So as I said within a certain circle of people in this forum there will never ever been any arguments cause they do not want to risk to to create tension between relations.



 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 05:18:00 PM by Immersion »

ffcal

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #121 on: November 27, 2013, 05:22:38 PM »
[I guess since most people are artists here they have the  need to some kind of self censorship in order to portray their own reputation. So as I said within a certain circle of people in this forum there will never ever been any arguments cause they do not want to risk to to create tension between relations.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about.  This is just gratuitous and, frankly, speculative junk.

Forrest

Immersion

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #122 on: November 27, 2013, 05:34:15 PM »
[I guess since most people are artists here they have the  need to some kind of self censorship in order to portray their own reputation. So as I said within a certain circle of people in this forum there will never ever been any arguments cause they do not want to risk to to create tension between relations.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about.  This is just gratuitous and, frankly, speculative junk.

Forrest

All I am saying is that if we all would be anonymous and we would all be nameless the discussion would be completely different and more open... and not so targeted about only me... I am not the only one who come up with "controversial" statements but people choose to not take the argument because of not creating tensions between relations.

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #123 on: November 27, 2013, 11:44:43 PM »
Immersion, you seam to hear only what you want to hear. Seriously!

I never said the Sound Toys was BETTER than the H8000FW. In fact I believe I said that the H8000FW is perhaps the best multi-fx processor on the market today. Its freaking incredible! What I did say was it is a cost that I could not justify. For the way that I work I can do everything I was doing with the H8000FW with the Sound Toys Plug-ins. I don't care if they sound exact because functionally as sound manglers and sweeteners they do everything I need them to do. I also feel the same way with the PSP plug-ins and more.

Next thing you don't seam to get. To state that all 2 way monitors are horrible shows your complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Some 3-ways are awesome. I HAVE heard the Tridents, they sound great, Harvey knows his stuff!!! He actually did a great and ingenious job of creating a 3-way that works awesome in a near field space.

However there are also great, not good, not passible but freaking amazing 2-ways as well. Interesting how the dozens of studios I have been in across the country over the years almost ALL seam to use and own a good set of 2-way 8" monitors be it Genelec, KRK, Focal, Dynaudio, Yamaha, Adam and more. Oh wait you don't like experience and usage as proof.

I was simply stating that to truly utilize the clarity and power of many sets of full size  3-ways or even large 2-ways for that matter, you need a good room that is big enough to get a nice distance from your monitors. To tell someone who mixes in an average bedroom, den or small basement space to go get large $3,000 to $5000 monitors is, in my line of work, misleading and irresponsible.

Did you know that they make 5" and 4" monitors so you can get closer to your speakers in a small space and often get better results? Did you know that for the most part if you don't spend some decent cash and treat your room for early reflections and trap some of your bass frequencies, you are by and large wasting your money since your speakers won't give you all the clarity and accuracy that you spent so much money on in the first place?

Did you know that most really good engineers can mix on anything and trillions of great sounding albums have been mixed on Yamaha NS-10's as a reference.

In our genre I know of many great sounding albums which have been mixed using the old Mackie speakers (the model escapes me) which I find harsh and fatiguing personally. But if a person can mix on them and get the finished product that they have is all that matters in the end. Of course that will be interpreted as me telling folks that good results can be had on cheap gear again.

The thing is, while I have alluded to it, it is true to a point. People can get great and professional (whatever that really means) results on less expensive gear. There are countless big label releases that have been recorded and mixed without 3-ways, Eventides and such.

Its also true that high end gear can give amazing results and make getting them easier than cheap stuff can. Wisdom lies in knowing which is best for you. My point is why would you go and buy a Ferrari when you are just learning to drive??? Other than because you can I guess.

Now having said that, I do agree with you that it is just as much of a trap to fall prey to the cult of good enough. Buying every cheap piece of crap that comes along with an arrogant attitude of "this is just as good as the pro stuff" can also yield disastrous results, but in this thread no one has said that.

However if someone like the original poster comes in with, "this is what I have, this is my budget, please help!" and you essentially imply, "what you have is crap, spend crazy $$$ like I am or you CAN'T make good music". Well someone needs to balance that with a reality check of, "do the best you can with what you have, despite the cost and save up for better stuff one step at a time".

If a person can only afford $200 - $300 and asks my opinion of what is the best microphone for $200 -  $300 I owe it to them to point out what is the best value in the price range they have mentioned. Its even ok to point out $400-$600 microphones that may be better if they are patient and wait a few more months. But, if I come at them with the usual gearslutz attitude of..."if you don't drop $2-5k on a mic then you can't make good music"...that would make me a jerk of the highest order.

I mean dude...can I call you dude?

I cannot find any fault with your gear list. Eventide, Dangerous, Burl, Trident all make killer stuff! Great gear of the highest order. Any studio with that kind of gear should have no excuses for poor recording quality.

The problem here is, as others have tried to tell you again, and again, and again...you present these items as the holy grails of gear, nothing can be better. Nothing...NOTHING!!! You also present it as a fact that everyone in the universe has accepted as a sonic purity law!

Sorry to tell you that there are other great monitor choices than the HG-3 and other great compressors than the Bax and so on...the one unit you have that even in my opinion cannot be bested and has no true competition in its world is the H8000FW. Still does not mean everyone needs one, and you are not some kind of artistic genius cuz you own one.

If you started a post like "hey I just got an H8000 and its blowing my mind!" I would guess folks here would respond with, "really? Wow, thats cool, what do you like it on? How are you using it?" and so on and so on. Its a much better presentation than what you have been doing.

Lastly, really I do think its cool and encouraging to see someone pursuing music and engineering with this kind of passion who is willing to go all the way and get some of the best gear out there to accomplish sonic goals which it seams you are setting for yourself! Bravo!

I know you refuted this before, but its actually what I did when I started out. I drew a line in the sand, decided on the quality and level of seriousness I was after, and then set goals both financially and educationally to make these dreams reality. 12 years ago I saved up for two years so I could afford my 8-channel Millennia Media HV3D Preamp. I still have it today and use it all the time.

So seriously, enjoy your gear. Enjoy and be challenged in your pursuit of music, but stop coming across as Mr. Know-it-all!

"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Immersion

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2013, 06:27:43 PM »
I never said the Sound Toys was BETTER than the H8000FW. In fact I believe I said that the H8000FW is perhaps the best multi-fx processor on the market today. Its freaking incredible! What I did say was it is a cost that I could not justify. For the way that I work I can do everything I was doing with the H8000FW with the Sound Toys Plug-ins. I don't care if they sound exact because functionally as sound manglers and sweeteners they do everything I need them to do. I also feel the same way with the PSP plug-ins and more.

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Well it feels good to hear you say that atleast, If you know any better effect processor let me know..from what I know there is no box that comes close.  Yes I understand it all depends on how you use it...some people like yourself if obviously fine with soundtoys. Personally I prefer something is more true the source

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Next thing you don't seam to get. To state that all 2 way monitors are horrible shows your complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Some 3-ways are awesome. I HAVE heard the Tridents, they sound great, Harvey knows his stuff!!! He actually did a great and ingenious job of creating a 3-way that works awesome in a near field space.
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I have not said that all 2-ways speakers are "horrible" in fact there exist a lot of amazing 2-ways speakers especially considering that this is the most usual kind in the studio. No matter if you like it or not there is still a distinct class difference between 2-way and 3-way design speaker. I also said it is harder to do a good 3 way speaker that is why there is also a lot of less good construction of 3 way design, those with good construction and good science behind them is however superior in most areas.  Speaker manufacture have an enormous pressure from the market to improve monitor design, and 3 way design is without doubt the future, and it will be more common, right now they exist mostly in the high end market which often is very expensive.  The Trident HG3s have a very good value since it compares with monitors with twice of the price in it's performance.

However there are also great, not good, not passible but freaking amazing 2-ways as well. Interesting how the dozens of studios I have been in across the country over the years almost ALL seam to use and own a good set of 2-way 8" monitors be it Genelec, KRK, Focal, Dynaudio, Yamaha, Adam and more. Oh wait you don't like experience and usage as proof.

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There is probably the same amount of studios that prefer 3-way speakers.
There is also a lot of studios who use really old equipment and spekers...
But if you buy a new studio with an unlimited budget in year 2013 I see no reason why to choose the 2 way design. But one need not exclude the other, to have both 2way and 3 way speakers in the setup can be good...myself will have more speakers in the future, it is good to be able to switch between them.  A pair of genelecs would be nice, mostly cause they are in almost every studio now.

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I was simply stating that to truly utilize the clarity and power of many sets of full size  3-ways or even large 2-ways for that matter, you need a good room that is big enough to get a nice distance from your monitors. To tell someone who mixes in an average bedroom, den or small basement space to go get large $3,000 to $5000 monitors is, in my line of work, misleading and irresponsible.

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Well we are speaking about the speakers, now lets leave the room out of the equation.  And you said it your self the Tridents is obviously working in a nearfield space and they are not the only ones I can assure you, I think actually the room size have nothing to do with this when compare 2 way and 3 way, it is all about that 3 way gives superior clarity, and especially when each element is driven with its own amp, that is the ultimate, this has nothing to do with the room size just pure sound quality. I think it quite logical. 3 way design is without doubt an up going trend and it will be more common in future, and I think also that a lot of manufactures will be inspired by the HG3 speaker design 

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Did you know that most really good engineers can mix on anything and trillions of great sounding albums have been mixed on Yamaha NS-10's as a reference.

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I know they can with help of audio analytical tools then can. Yes NS-10 have mostly mid range audio, this is the reason why it is easy to mix with them, cause there is not much else in the sound that will disturb you. I have heard the NS-10 myself and it as one of the worst speakers I have heard. I do not agree about the idea to have these crap monitors in every studio.  Yeah I know they say that if it sounds good on them it sounds good on all speakers, but at the same time I just think it is a myth that lives on and on... and people is just following the leader in a feedback loop. There is obviously better speaker for that. I will not be one of those who buy any NS-10, I will not continue this stupidity, people use it just because other people and studios use it, as simple as that, people just mimics each other.
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In our genre I know of many great sounding albums which have been mixed using the old Mackie speakers (the model escapes me) which I find harsh and fatiguing personally. But if a person can mix on them and get the finished product that they have is all that matters in the end. Of course that will be interpreted as me telling folks that good results can be had on cheap gear again.
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You can mix on anything, but Makies have atleast some what flat frequency response that is the most important part, I am sure one can mix in them without problems. But they might expect they will sound different on other speakers..it is always like that no speakers sounds the same unfortunately. There is no ultimate studio reference monitor...there is too much other factors which will affect the sound... the only absolute reference of any music is to use the exact same equipment and room and speaker placement as it was recorded on.

BTW if you do not have tons of cash it can be good to cross mix with headphones as well.  If you wand a flat frequency response headphones is the chepeast way to get it... it is good to mix mid and high rage harder with bass. But it s good to mix in both should sound good on both.

 

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The thing is, while I have alluded to it, it is true to a point. People can get great and professional (whatever that really means) results on less expensive gear. There are countless big label releases that have been recorded and mixed without 3-ways, Eventides and such.

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absolutely...  But it is good to come as close to the "reference point" in audio when recording..  With the right cheap gear you can..especially second hand stuff..the price is not equal quality.. there is a lot of exceptions everywhere
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Its also true that high end gear can give amazing results and make getting them easier than cheap stuff can. Wisdom lies in knowing which is best for you. My point is why would you go and buy a Ferrari when you are just learning to drive??? Other than because you can I guess.
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I do not think the Ferrari analogy is really working in this context.
Well it depends on how new you are.  IF you know the basic principles of the cheaper gear..I see no reason why not invest and jump into the high end terriroty directely.. IF you have high demands for high audio quality..it all depends on how much this matter to you personally..we all are different..some one is happy with less..some one is happy with more..

Personally my own philosophy is, that it is stupid and a waste of money and time to by cheap gear,  I have realized this cause I have my apartment full of useless cheap gear that is not even worth selling, they have no second hand value.
It is simply junk.  I have decide now, I will skip the mid range and by the high range directly instead I think in a long term perspective it is smart for every musician to that that investment, if you have a high desire for audio quality. It is better to invest it and you are happy...  And I do not need to stress the importance that high end gear does keep MOST of it's value you can SELL it when you realize you do not need it or you want something even better. The best thing is to buy all second hand then you can almost be sure that you get back all money you invest when you sell it, ( if you buy the right products that age well).

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Now having said that, I do agree with you that it is just as much of a trap to fall prey to the cult of good enough. Buying every cheap piece of crap that comes along with an arrogant attitude of "this is just as good as the pro stuff" can also yield disastrous results, but in this thread no one has said that.
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Yes..it can be a trap... and gives you an "illusion" that the sound as as good as it gets..but when you have an opportunity to try new gear it might open ups totally new worlds you...I think it is healthy to constantly monitor the market and see what it has to offer to get an idea what you are missing out on..

I think since the 2000s I think we have this idea that because of all the development audio quality will become cheaper and cheaper all the time..
We saw the mostly the 3-4 first years in the 2000s..cause everything was going towards software and in the box... I think now.. we have come to realize that good audio quality comes with a price still.. maybe in 20 years you do not have to pay anything for the best sound quality today I hope so..

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However if someone like the original poster comes in with, "this is what I have, this is my budget, please help!" and you essentially imply, "what you have is crap, spend crazy $$$ like I am or you CAN'T make good music". Well someone needs to balance that with a reality check of, "do the best you can with what you have, despite the cost and save up for better stuff one step at a time".
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Well he him self said the sound quality was not good.. I told him the bitter truth...audio quality is not for free.... you have too first decide your budget of investment then with that you can decide what to buy... if you have a small budget you need to spend your money very wisely.. a lot of people just buy from what "brand" they think is best... it is wrong.. a lot of the bang of the buck stuff you get from the smaller underground companies that are not so well known but that you have to dig deep to find...there is certainly a lot of good stuff out there..

However I still think you should take things into the perspective, if you are seeing yourself as a long term musician, I would advices to seriously not waste money on budget stuff too much, and most important of all buy no new products since it will lose it's value, if you can sell your budget gear you will reach your goal to upgrade to more high end gear faster...

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If a person can only afford $200 - $300 and asks my opinion of what is the best microphone for $200 -  $300 I owe it to them to point out what is the best value in the price range they have mentioned. Its even ok to point out $400-$600 microphones that may be better if they are patient and wait a few more months. But, if I come at them with the usual gearslutz attitude of..."if you don't drop $2-5k on a mic then you can't make good music"...that would make me a jerk of the highest order.
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I think with microphones there is so much good stuff from china..the problems with there can be a high varance between each micrphone in the same series..because of the the quality testing is flawed.. you can get a very good ex or a bad ex...you never know..it is a risk you take..but it can be worth it..Also the microphone market is very big, both new and second hand market.  There is alot more to choose from compare to a lot other equipment in the studio so yeah you can without doubt get a good micrphone for 200-300$
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I mean dude...can I call you dude?
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Yes Please
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I cannot find any fault with your gear list. Eventide, Dangerous, Burl, Trident all make killer stuff! Great gear of the highest order. Any studio with that kind of gear should have no excuses for poor recording quality.
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I do not actually have any BURL equipment yet..I have considering to keep my Lynx Aurora for maybe 1 year.. or so..  However I still have no pre amp, you know this is the first part in the studio so without this the signal flow is not complete.  Without this I cannot not create music . As I said earlier I think of buying this one...


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The problem here is, as others have tried to tell you again, and again, and again...you present these items as the holy grails of gear, nothing can be better. Nothing...NOTHING!!! You also present it as a fact that everyone in the universe has accepted as a sonic purity law!
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You and I both now that in this business is everything strictly subjective.  Everyone has it's own idea what is the holy grail of gear.  It is true I have said that Burl does the best stuff right now, that is maybe true to some and not others but I know for sure in the studio world there is a lot of fuzz about Burl now, and is in this particular circle regarding as one of the top equipment... those in the circle claims it offers superior sonic quality unlike any other equipment they have heard...This might be true to you are not..me myself I am not sure yet since I do not own any BURL gear yet... but I know after all I have been reading about BURL stuff that I know burl stuff is good invested money... which really makes a difference. If I had a complet Burl system and a pair of  RL 901K monitors maybe perhaps then I could say I have the holy grail of equipment :)
But these speaker are way beyond my price range...



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Sorry to tell you that there are other great monitor choices than the HG-3 and other great compressors than the Bax and so on...the one unit you have that even in my opinion cannot be bested and has no true competition in its world is the H8000FW. Still does not mean everyone needs one, and you are not some kind of artistic genius cuz you own one.
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I do not consider my HG3 monitors the best monitors in the world. However in it's price range I find it among the best if not the best.  That is the exact reason I bought it, it has an extreme good an aggressive price setting.  They are still expensive but for the money you buy you get monitors which is compared to monitors in twice of the price... Yes that is why I bought the Eventide, now I know
in the effect department I can't get anything better really...so  I will be satisfied for a very long time with this one.... it will probably suck when the H9000 is released... and blow it out of the water but hopefully it is long into the future..

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If you started a post like "hey I just got an H8000 and its blowing my mind!" I would guess folks here would respond with, "really? Wow, thats cool, what do you like it on? How are you using it?" and so on and so on. Its a much better presentation than what you have been doing.
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Maybe such thread will come, I need to buy my pre amp first as I said... sO I connect my Kemper amp to it..Problem is I have not tried it out much yet.  But if some one is interested to hear how it sound I will gladly give you some recordings later. I know a lot of people are interested in other forums atleast. There is really not much "samples" from this cause I guess not many people have it.. there is one long video on youtube...but it have such bad source audio some techno stuff..


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Lastly, really I do think its cool and encouraging to see someone pursuing music and engineering with this kind of passion who is willing to go all the way and get some of the best gear out there to accomplish sonic goals which it seams you are setting for yourself! Bravo!
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Thank you for your support. I am also glad, I have become to realize that life is about to realize your own dreams, this is my dream to build a studio..and record..
It is one of the few things that drives me in life...so I have no idea what I would spend the money on otherwise..I cannot come up with anything better atleast..And I say it again, it feels more safe to know since I have bought mostly high end equipment that the market value still exist when I decide to sell..
so it does not feel like I have just put money in to the ocean... but if I really need I can also sell it.

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I know you refuted this before, but its actually what I did when I started out. I drew a line in the sand, decided on the quality and level of seriousness I was after, and then set goals both financially and educationally to make these dreams reality. 12 years ago I saved up for two years so I could afford my 8-channel Millennia Media HV3D Preamp. I still have it today and use it all the time.
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I decided this about 4 years ago... I was thinking it would take first 2 years, then 3 years then 4 years, it was always delayed cause it was hard to keep the budget, I also bought a guitar which was a lot more expensive then I did expect,
it did cost more then the H8000FW and rember the the H8000FW is a lot more expensive in EUROPE because of import taxes etc...

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So seriously, enjoy your gear. Enjoy and be challenged in your pursuit of music, but stop coming across as Mr. Know-it-all!

Thanks "dude"  I enjoy this discussion...there does not always have to be agreements... we all have different perspectives on everything it is human nature...

Regarding MR know it all...welcome to the humanity unfortunately if this is something that bugs you I do not think you like the humanity very much, cause I see this all the time...it is a kind of human instinct one of the most primitive animal instincts humans need to assert itself in the "group" to show how is the dominant in a particular group, every one in the group need to show who is the dominant and ultimately who is the leader in a particular group, it as a deeply embedded in the human nature which helps our survival as species.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 07:07:47 PM by Immersion »

Castleview

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2013, 06:59:24 PM »
Is there really a good reason to continue this argument? Not that I'm against a good debate, but I feel like it's going in circles at this point.

Immersion

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #126 on: December 01, 2013, 11:20:26 AM »
one store in germany have this amazing deal on the Antelope Eclipse which I just can't refuse, it have changed my plans radically, I am now trying to sell all I can do afford it in time... the deal ends in 6 days. I hope a swedish store will be able to take in for me for that price.


El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #127 on: December 01, 2013, 11:44:29 AM »
Is there really a good reason to continue this argument? Not that I'm against a good debate, but I feel like it's going in circles at this point.

+1 Thought the same (even i did response earlier too...)

Im just waiting now for the day hearing some stuff by Immersion! Then we all can compare what makes the difference in audio quality with all the gear he owns then.

Cheers,
Tomas