Author Topic: Digital to analog converters  (Read 7705 times)

ffcal

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2013, 09:43:26 PM »
"Also, how much are you ready to pay for a more "effortless" experience when creating music, or do you prefer to work really hard
to make your cheap gear sound expensive, personally for me I am tired it, I want an inspiring setup that sounds amazing, not spend endless
time and energy to make something as I want when I can do that the on the fly with good equipment, that is the thing for me I want an effortless
way of expression and not have to deal with "crap"  just to save some money, cheap gear and most plugs does not inspire me I want that extra..."

Ah, but that's the rub.  For each new piece of complex piece of gear you add to the system, you steepen your potential learning curve and things can become harder, not more effortless.  It's much like the difference between going into a neighborhood grocery store that chooses its items wisely and going into the Costco warehouse.  I hope you're able to find your own bliss with your new aggregation of gear, but I would think that at some point, you would run the risk of getting diminishing returns out of the complexity of your setup.

Forrest

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2013, 06:14:25 AM »
You have come to understand and know the sound and its quality from this high end gear and this is not something that is base on how much money a person has to spend....Burl converters on uneducated  ears within the home project studio would be a colossal waste of money.  This sound has to be learned.  Sort of like asking a person to taste a Chateau Lafite Rothschild Bordeaux when they are use to drinking sweet blush zinfandel wine.  Odds are they would spit it out.

I will always push the envelope for my self and go for the best gear I can afford and sometimes more than I can afford.  The complexity that Forrest suggest can be  an issue.  A great converter feed by a crappy pre amp or front end signal path will give what on the other side.....exactly.  So generally if say Burl which is the converter most talked about in this thread is your choice then the rest of the signal path should be of a similar quality or it is a pointless venture.  There can be a good deal of maintenance involve as well.

Ive mentioned this story before and like to when too much lofty high ended - ness dominates.   Bruce Springsteen's Fans consider his album "Nebraska" his best which was recorded on an 4 track cassette deck will the "Boss" was on tour way back when.  What the fans heard was not the tape hiss and poor quality record but the heart felt words and emotion he expressed. Certainly anyone would want to be able to capture every single subtle nuance of a performance that brilliant gear can do so well but the listener at the other end will be moved by the emotion not the the converters, pre amp or microphones used.

P.S......Great post Paul!

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2013, 08:04:02 AM »
What the fans heard was not the tape hiss and poor quality record but the heart felt words and emotion he expressed. Certainly anyone would want to be able to capture every single subtle nuance of a performance that brilliant gear can do so well but the listener at the other end will be moved by the emotion not the the converters, pre amp or microphones used.

This right here hits the nail on the head for me. I know of musicians who have studios bristling with gear, yet rarely do I hear actual music output from them. I personally know a few people who fall into this category. They enjoy collecting the gear, building and perfecting the studio, yet don't use it for its purpose. When they do, I find myself rarely moved by the music.

Other musicians with limited budgets who rely only on software to produce their music (or simply prefer the simpler workflow of software-based solutions), or just play guitar with some reverb/delays, can produce some amazing music. Music that deeply moves me. They don't care about perfection. They're just using the tools they have to express themselves through music, and that passion shines through brighter than any music created in a pro studio.

Immersion: I'm sorry, but I'm going to single you out here. El culto called you out on this as well. Your advice is good and well-meaning, but in some of your posts you come across as elitist, which I think is fair to say, nobody really appreciates. The impression you give is: "If you're not buying top of the line gear, why bother make music at all? You're wasting your time." or "I suppose you could buy that budget-priced gear, but it's going to sound like shit." I'll blame this impression partially on the fact that we're missing vocal intonation, which makes a world of difference.

All that said, as I was reading through this thread, your clear passion for sonic perfection was obvious. I thought to myself: "I really want to hear this guy's music." (I'm assuming you're male, correct me if I'm wrong)

I suppose I wasn't terribly surprised to find out that you've never actually released anything . . .

Then you go on to say you're mostly using software, which you were poo-pooing earlier. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?

I applaud you for not releasing the first thing you ever completed. Too many people do that now, resulting in a glut of mediocre content. (I started in 93 and didn't release anything to the public until 98 with a tape release.) You're working toward perfection in your sound design, and no one can judge you badly for that. This is what YOU want. Excellent. Go for it!

But until you can provide proof to your words, you need to dial it back a bit. Realize that not everyone has tons of cash to spend on high-end gear. And if you judge music or the musician purely by the tools that were used, you're missing out!
Mike Carss -- Altus : aural journeys for the mind's eye
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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2013, 09:11:06 AM »
I just want to say that I like analog as much as the next guy.
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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2013, 09:29:02 AM »
LOL at that picture.

I actually do have access to reel-to-reel tape recorders at my university but I'm not sure if they even work because that studio they're in is garbage. The computers are well over 10 years outdated and barely even work.
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chris23

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2013, 09:46:22 AM »
I haven't done anything serious with music in over 20 years, but I'm really enjoying this thread. There is a lot to learn here even for those of us who are mere listeners and fans of ambient music.

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2013, 10:07:07 AM »
I'm pleased to see how many people feel as I do, that the endless pursuit of the most expensive gear is actually a distraction from the preferable goal of understanding your gear, and doing something interesting with it.

My photography professor in college used to talk about his friend who spent all his income on Leica and Hasselblad and other exotic cameras, and had all the available lenses of the highest specifications. The guy kept them in perfect condition, and gradually stopped taking photographs. For him, the point became the collection of camera gear, rather than the art of photography.
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Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2013, 01:38:03 PM »
What the fans heard was not the tape hiss and poor quality record but the heart felt words and emotion he expressed. Certainly anyone would want to be able to capture every single subtle nuance of a performance that brilliant gear can do so well but the listener at the other end will be moved by the emotion not the the converters, pre amp or microphones used
---------

I totally agree with you, on some of my recordings I use tape saturation, and it can add slightly tape hiss sound it can give soul to the music if desired for instance... it is the emotion and feel that counts.. and wher the music takes your mind...
It is just that if you have the right setup, you have more control of your own sound and output, you can decide youself if you want that superclean high quality sound
or if you want to color and drive the sound to get a more dirty 70s sound.  For me it is more to get total control and not let the sound chain compromise.  Some people take it longer then others of course... each person set there own bars of satisfaction.  so it really boils down too what gives you the satisfaction ?
Are you satisfied and accepting your compromises or are you ready to just let them slip..



This right here hits the nail on the head for me. I know of musicians who have studios bristling with gear, yet rarely do I hear actual music output from them. I personally know a few people who fall into this category. They enjoy collecting the gear, building and perfecting the studio, yet don't use it for its purpose. When they do, I find myself rarely moved by the music.

---------
I think it is nothing wrong with either things some people like it for the technical challenge, or to for fill their own dreams...often it takes a lot of time to save up money for a studio, to challenge is to keep the burning creativity alive.... I try to at least record unfinished ideas to work on... I know for sure I can't express them properly without dream sound.  Every decide themselves what do to with their music but personally I find no driving force if not take things one step further there is a ocean of music out there, and is getting increasingly harder to leave a footprint in the music scene.  I find personally and I am talking from a highly personal perspective that a lot of music fails miserable just because of the production,  I must admit the better my listening equipment has become the more analytically my listening have become cause errors in the mix gets A LOT more noticeable and becomes an increasingly  irritating factor in the musical experience..but these slips through easily in less expensive systems and often get unnoticed ....That I think is one other problem in the other end of the spectrum, where the equipment you use to create music becomes a limiting factor and does not really represent what you create but a distorted version of it.

Better equipment gives you more control at least, sometimes I want super clean and modern ambient sometimes I want to do really old school vintage Berlin school sound, where I broke really any rule in the book of a "modern" recording. So it is about to try to realize what you want to achieve, for a lot of people simply a more mid quality equipment will be enough to realize there own ideas, it is in the end about personal satisfaction as long as the person who crate it is 100% satisfied with it I have really nothing, I am just saying myself that audio quality is for me really important, and maybe I am too much of an perfectionist for my own good some times...
But I can't simply find any driving force to create the music I have in my visions unless I get that dream sound I want my driving force is to take things one step further and the general production is for me for my own inner satisfaction a lot in the sound itself, ..and I am very close now in my studio where the equipment gives me really all the tools I need to realize my visions.  This was the only way for me..



------

Other musicians with limited budgets who rely only on software to produce their music (or simply prefer the simpler workflow of software-based solutions), or just play guitar with some reverb/delays, can produce some amazing music. Music that deeply moves me. They don't care about perfection. They're just using the tools they have to express themselves through music, and that passion shines through brighter than any music created in a pro studio.

----------

I think there is nothing wrong with either, as long as you feel satisfactory, for me the emotional output and mind-moving qualities is the most important for me..
the production is for me important too..but it not about getting the most professional or clean sound as possible, it is to make a sound that fits the music and atmosphere and its inner pictures it create,  a lot top producer would think that black metal albums sounds totally like crap, razor sharp and ear bleeding productions, for me I think it just only fits the atmosphere of the music, but as I said earlier you should have full control over it, if you want it raw and ear bleeding or super clean and smooth.

One of the main reason I bought my H8000 was cause I play guitar and it is just easy and inspiring tool.. one of the reason I want more outboard gear is cause I want to be less dependent on plugins I just want to be able to record more easy in real time and have things ready to record all the time, not dealing with plugs more then I have too, when I record I am always more of guy who prefer to record longer takes in real time. I am not a cut and paste guy.  Cause I want to sit down and express myself and let my mind drift away with the music.




Immersion I'm sorry, but I'm going to single you out here. El culto called you out on this as well.Your advice is good and well-meaning, but in some of your posts you come across as elitist, which I think is fair to say, nobody really appreciates. The impression you give is: "If you're not buying top of the line gear, why bother make music at all? You're wasting your time." or "I suppose you could buy that budget-priced gear, but it's going to sound like shit." I'll blame this impression partially on the fact that we're missing vocal intonation, which makes a world of difference.

Well I am really sorry if I did come across as an elitist, I think I have explained quite wrong that all have set their own personal bars, the only thing that matters is the artists personal satisfaction, of course it is up the listeners you and me to decide and form your opinion about it.  All people have the right to decide themselves what gear they need to achieve what they want.  I prefer the analogue sound I use almost only virtual analogue plugins, and it is quite obvious that the real thing will sound even better then these plugins.  Me personally do not find any driving force to create music I am not satisfied with, that is why I did take all these years to build my own studio instead of relying only on in the box plugins  which would strongly compromise my own musical vision, and I would never feel 100% satisfied.






All that said, as I was reading through this thread, your clear passion for sonic perfection was obvious. I thought to myself: "I really want to hear this guy's music." (I'm assuming you're male, correct me if I'm wrong)

I suppose I wasn't terribly surprised to find out that you've never actually released anything . . .

Why I have not released anything is ONLY because of economical reasons I would say, it has taking me a lot of time to save up, first for a new computer 2009, I had a really slow computer before that which I could not use to record on and use soft synths on,  it took me a lot of time to save up for new speakers and a new guitar,
the years pass quickly, but I have been recording "ideas" I have a big library that I can use to create songs with, cause they are recordings of my ideas for  my last years... 

I have no released a full album,  but I have done recordings but not a full album or official release, I have decided to wait cause I have always thought I do not want to "waste" ideas I want to give them the best expression I possibly can both emotionally and sonically.  I hope I will be able to realize my life works and that it will be worth the wait.  I could if I wanted to record at least ambient album now if I wanted ( but my other projects and guitar driven stuff I still need to buy some more in my studio.), I have my Lexicon reverb now that I have been dreaming of for a very long time which is the main essence, and that PCM Native was released was just a big dream coming true for me, because before the plugs where released the HW boxes where simply too expensive for me and totally out of reach, I was aiming to buy a used PCM 91 but it was hardly seen on second hand sites of used music gears where I live.  I decided when I was 25, now I will save all money  I make to my studio..
I am 29 now it has been delayed a lot longer then I expected cause I did not hold my money good enough..wasting them on crap..


Then you go on to say you're mostly using software, which you were poo-pooing earlier. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?

I think you misunderstand me a lot, I have nothing against plugins, I am not a anti digital guy at all, I prefer hybrid to use digital for what it is best for and analogue for
what it is best for and combined both worlds and use their own superior qualities.  I use for instance software synths, I use a lot of digital plugins but I also use a lot of virtual analogue plugins these are the plugs I want to replace with real analogue equipment.  It is only these virtual plugs that have made me very satisfied with my sound but using real analogue equipment I hope to take it even one step further which will be well worth the price for sure.

I applaud you[/b] for not releasing the first thing you ever completed. Too many people do that now, resulting in a glut of mediocre content. (I started in 93 and didn't release anything to the public until 98 with a tape release.) You're working toward perfection in your sound design, and no one can judge you badly for that. This is what YOU want. Excellent. Go for it!

Thank you for your support, yes it can be healthy to give it some time to breathe and you decide yourself when you feel you are ready to realize your musical visions...hopefully the time will come. Yes the ocean of music becomes to big now, in every genre...it is fair to say that in some sense it gets over flooded.. too much of the same... I think with time it will be an increasing problem I mean it will soon take multiple life times to really explore all the important music of the world... so it is best to not sink down to the bottom of these ocean and try to at least make some kind of footprint.. and find your own expression.



But until you can provide proof to your words, you need to dial it back a bit. Realize that not everyone has tons of cash to spend on high-end gear. And if you judge music or the musician purely by the tools that were used, you're missing out!

I realize that, and just with my ears listening I can understand most ambient artists have linting budget it is really not hard to tell,  ambient music will not make you rich, most people use it on a hobby basis, they have bought a synth and wan to record some stuff on it with some reverb on top.  I have no against that, all to its own, I am just telling you that my own driving force works different for me the sonic quality has to be there.. that is why I buy these expensive equipment, besides that I like technology in general to build my studio has been a dream for a very long time, I think for most artists it is a dream to have their own studio and fillsa big void in the life.
And the technological challenge is stimulating also learn about general sound theory how everything works.
The more you learn about the easier it gets to realize the sonic quality you seek depending on your own personal preferences and needs.

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2013, 01:51:42 PM »
I'm pleased to see how many people feel as I do, that the endless pursuit of the most expensive gear is actually a distraction from the preferable goal of understanding your gear, and doing something interesting with it.

Or maybe we all have different bars of sound quality ?
I do not buy your argument that cheap equipment can sounds as good as expensive (more good equipment) it is nothing then a plain lie and that is attitues like that
I think is the last thing ambient artists needs,  in ambient music there is really no limit to have crystal clean audio you want.  As I have said I see ambient as on of the most cutting edge music when it comes to sound design,  so personally I do really not share you philosophy that you should not invest in as good equipment as you can, if they make no difference then you buy the wrong equipment,  good equipment will make dramtic difference I am not talking about very small differences here but they can make dramatical changes.  If you do not hear the the big difference you should invest in new monitors.   

My new Trident HG3 speakers have really revolutionized my listening but it has all increased my "critical listening"  errors do not slip thru as they do in many other speakers,  I even hear bigger difference between mp3 and wav, and it is mostly transient rich music, which is the weakness of the mp3 format to convey the transients, they gets soften strongly in the mp3 format.

Of course these is a symbiotic realtionship with the gear, I buy your argument that you need to craft the equipment and the craft is very important especially with cheaper equipment, with more expensive equipment everything sounds better with less effort and you need to know less studio tricks to make it sound good..
Also saves a lot of time.. do not deal with "crap" such as using a lot of time consuming "tricks" to mask the weaknesses in your gear.

It all is in balance, it comes to a limit where equipment becomes a limiting factor using your craft to full , some people will never cross this limit, some people cross this balance...and when that time comes I suggest you might invest in better equipment if you want to move on to explore new heights.

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2013, 01:59:44 PM »
You have come to understand and know the sound and its quality from this high end gear and this is not something that is base on how much money a person has to spend....Burl converters on uneducated  ears within the home project studio would be a colossal waste of money.  This sound has to be learned.  Sort of like asking a person to taste a Chateau Lafite Rothschild Bordeaux when they are use to drinking sweet blush zinfandel wine.  Odds are they would spit it out.

I will always push the envelope for my self and go for the best gear I can afford and sometimes more than I can afford.  The complexity that Forrest suggest can be  an issue.  A great converter feed by a crappy pre amp or front end signal path will give what on the other side.....exactly.  So generally if say Burl which is the converter most talked about in this thread is your choice then the rest of the signal path should be of a similar quality or it is a pointless venture.  There can be a good deal of maintenance involve as well.

Ive mentioned this story before and like to when too much lofty high ended - ness dominates.   Bruce Springsteen's Fans consider his album "Nebraska" his best which was recorded on an 4 track cassette deck will the "Boss" was on tour way back when.  What the fans heard was not the tape hiss and poor quality record but the heart felt words and emotion he expressed. Certainly anyone would want to be able to capture every single subtle nuance of a performance that brilliant gear can do so well but the listener at the other end will be moved by the emotion not the the converters, pre amp or microphones used.

P.S......Great post Paul!

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...
I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before. 

emotion is if you ask me superior to sonics in the essence of music... so yeah.. to use a 4 track recording and record real emotions is of course better then emotionless music with superior sonics....  but ultimately they should have both.. but most important of all it should fit the music, it is not about what sounds most "professional" which fit the music, and the inner pictures of what the music create....I see a lot of music today  where professionalism is the priority, the artist might sound very good live or on the demo recordings but in the studio you emotionless and "professional"... so yeah.. it is a thin line... personally I many times prefer the demo versions...even though they sound very bad, they have that emotion which is really beyond words...just a feeling..

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2013, 02:08:07 PM »
"Also, how much are you ready to pay for a more "effortless" experience when creating music, or do you prefer to work really hard
to make your cheap gear sound expensive, personally for me I am tired it, I want an inspiring setup that sounds amazing, not spend endless
time and energy to make something as I want when I can do that the on the fly with good equipment, that is the thing for me I want an effortless
way of expression and not have to deal with "crap"  just to save some money, cheap gear and most plugs does not inspire me I want that extra..."

Ah, but that's the rub.  For each new piece of complex piece of gear you add to the system, you steepen your potential learning curve and things can become harder, not more effortless.  It's much like the difference between going into a neighborhood grocery store that chooses its items wisely and going into the Costco warehouse.  I hope you're able to find your own bliss with your new aggregation of gear, but I would think that at some point, you would run the risk of getting diminishing returns out of the complexity of your setup.

Forrest

There will always be a learning curve..it is hard to avoid dealing with these kind of technology you need to know what you are doing..
There is a long road to creating a "effortless" environment of musical creativity expression. Steve roach is a master of this craft, in interviews you can read
how he let his system loop all day long so he can come there and express himself whenever he feels like it...I want it to be like that , I do not want to
be in my DAW going around in menus cheeking plugs I just want to record effortlessly,  that is why I bought my H8000FW. It will help me with that for sure,
especially since I am guitarist too,  some people might claim that I can use software reverb, but the eventide sound is so much more then just reverb, it is top quality modulation delays not comparably to any software, also pitching , also chorus and all..   I want to setup my studio so I as much as possible can record "live" on the fly and get as good possible in real time, even mastered and finishes quality ultimately (using the right summarize and sonic exciters) 

I am ware the eventide H8000fw can be very complex, Steve Roach told me it is a life machine, it is probably true.  I think with time I will go deeper and deeper with it, but it will take some time before I will even study the manual more in detail, to begin with I will just use the many presets in the H8000 as templates and then manipulate them via midi in real time with foot pedals or midi keyboards. The presets in these machines are one of the things that justify this high price, they are really useful.

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2013, 05:20:11 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
But I can't simply find any driving force to create the music I have in my visions unless I get that dream sound I want my driving force is to take things one step further and the general production is for me for my own inner satisfaction a lot in the sound itself, ..and I am very close now in my studio where the equipment gives me really all the tools I need to realize my visions.  This was the only way for me..

Do you have some examples of music/albums on the market you would call it has this "dream sound", "clean" and "great production" you are looking for? Just 2 or 3 example i would like to hear from you so I can understand it better.



Quote from: Immersion
One of the main reason I bought my H8000 was cause I play guitar and it is just easy and inspiring tool.. one of the reason I want more outboard gear is cause I want to be less dependent on plugins I just want to be able to record more easy in real time and have things ready to record all the time, not dealing with plugs more then I have too, when I record I am always more of guy who prefer to record longer takes in real time. I am not a cut and paste guy.  Cause I want to sit down and express myself and let my mind drift away with the music.

So, you are saying you can´t record in realtime without hardware? As you have to setup software for that first, the same goes for hardware.

Quote from: Immersion
I prefer the analogue sound I use almost only virtual analogue plugins, and it is quite obvious that the real thing will sound even better then these plugins.

You should really bring concrete examples (so we can listen to the differences) instead of claiming facts all the time…."it is quite obvious" is such a meaningless phrase for instance.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 05:23:17 PM by El culto »

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2013, 05:41:43 PM »
Quote from: Immersion

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before.

I just have some Neumann´s and they aren´t expensive….but they are more expansive than Behringer…..but not as much as expansive than yours. So it seems like expansive is relative - right? So in your theory your monitors are better then mine just because they are more expansive - thats a funny logic….I always thought monitors are working tools and not a replacement for libido fixation  ;D

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »
I'm pleased to see how many people feel as I do, that the endless pursuit of the most expensive gear is actually a distraction from the preferable goal of understanding your gear, and doing something interesting with it.

Or maybe we all have different bars of sound quality ?
I do not buy your argument that cheap equipment can sounds as good as expensive (more good equipment) it is nothing then a plain lie and that is attitues like that
I think is the last thing ambient artists needs...


WTF, who are you talking to?

"A plain lie?" First of all, I never said cheap equipment sounds as good as higher-quality equipment. Nobody else said that, either -- the closest was Paul saying it's possible to make good-sounding recordings with less expensive gear if your really know what you're doing.

The nearest thing I said was that it's more important to use good equipment and understand how to use it, than to endlessly chase the most expensive item in each category. I guarantee you haven't heard a decrease in the sound quality of recordings I've mastered since I sold the Cranesong and started using a Presonus Firestudio as the interface with my computer. One box cost $4,000, the other was less than $1,000, yet the switch from one to the other does not result in worse-sounding recordings coming out of my studio, either my own work or the albums I master here. You might argue that the newer recordings MUST sound worse, because they went through a less expensive converter, but that simply isn't how it works in the real world.

Seriously, Immersion, I appreciate your intention to argue in favor of using good gear, but your tone is extremely condescending toward several people who certainly know more about audio recording than you do, and who have been using that knowledge to release ambient recordings into the world for many years. You're entitled to your opinion, but philosophies dreamed-up in a studio that doesn't actually record or release any work, no matter the price tag, simply don't match up to philosophies derived from practical experience.
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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2013, 06:40:51 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
Why I have not released anything is ONLY because of economical reasons I would say, it has taking me a lot of time to save up, first for a new computer 2009, I had a really slow computer before…

Well, then it´s definitely time for a new computer also….i mean, a machine from 2009 isn´t really the BEST!

Sorry, but I couldn´t resist  :D

BTW: Releasing music isn´t depending on economical reasons - plenty of labels out there!

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2013, 06:41:52 PM »
I'm pleased to see how many people feel as I do, that the endless pursuit of the most expensive gear is actually a distraction from the preferable goal of understanding your gear, and doing something interesting with it.

Or maybe we all have different bars of sound quality ?
I do not buy your argument that cheap equipment can sounds as good as expensive (more good equipment) it is nothing then a plain lie and that is attitues like that
I think is the last thing ambient artists needs...


WTF, who are you talking to?

"A plain lie?" First of all, I never said cheap equipment sounds as good as higher-quality equipment. Nobody else said that, either -- the closest was Paul saying it's possible to make good-sounding recordings with less expensive gear if your really know what you're doing.

The nearest thing I said was that it's more important to use good equipment and understand how to use it, than to endlessly chase the most expensive item in each category. I guarantee you haven't heard a decrease in the sound quality of recordings I've mastered since I sold the Cranesong and started using a Presonus Firestudio as the interface with my computer. One box cost $4,000, the other was less than $1,000, yet the switch from one to the other does not result in worse-sounding recordings coming out of my studio, either my own work or the albums I master here. You might argue that the newer recordings MUST sound worse, because they went through a less expensive converter, but that simply isn't how it works in the real world.

Seriously, Immersion, I appreciate your intention to argue in favor of using good gear, but your tone is extremely condescending toward several people who certainly know more about audio recording than you do, and who have been using that knowledge to release ambient recordings into the world for many years. You're entitled to your opinion, but philosophies dreamed-up in a studio that doesn't actually record or release any work, no matter the price tag, simply don't match up to philosophies derived from practical experience.

I have explained that the craft how to use the equipment is more important, but you come to a limit where the equipment becomes a limiting factor.
You say you hear no difference now then when you had your HEDD, well are you only talking about the converters I guess so..
I am sure it would be hard to tell the difference if you have good converters.  There is a big difference between good and bad converters, but you come to a point where the converters are not the most important thing but other things in your chain, such as pre amp, transformers how hard you drive them, or even tubes if you use it.  Soo many other factors.  All I am saying I do not like people who look down on people who prefer the best possible sound quality,  I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique it is nothing wrong to that, but I prefer to have the best possible sound chain as possible I am almost picture the electrical current inside my mind, picturinge the whole audio chain for me it is a spirtial experience when I know that all these electrons pass thru the best circuits possible it give me a inner sense satisfaction, when I know the whole chain is clean.  I can of couse respect that a lot of people think this perspective is total nonsense and that I should spend money on some magic plugin instead,  But I get this kind of emotional attachment to the equipment and it givies me driving force and inspiration, that is why a lot of people like analogue gear  they have an emotional attachment to it, it is hard to feel the same way with all digital . As I say I understand that people think it is nonse, and that the only thing that matters is the final output and they do not car about the sound on an electron level, as  I said we all have different respect of the sound and perceive it different. 


I say again how important the monitors are, the better monitors you use the more details you will hear.
The need for better equipment is not really needed until you have "can hear it" for that you need enough good monitors.
Difference between monitors as we know...are huge...

Mike, well you say my tone is condescending to people well I am sorry for that, but I feel the same when people look down on professional equipment, seeing it as redundant equipment and stupid, cause it is better to buy cheaper equipment and cheat with different mixing techniques to mask it's flaws. I think it show no respect to professional audio at all with that kind of attitude, when we here people say "why should we buy this and that", well if it sounds better it should be reason enough, yet one have to argue about why to buy professional and good sounding equipment.

I use a lot of plugins to I have said that, but my VA plugs I want to use real analogue equipment, to color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc, this kind of "magic" can to some degree but done already in the DAW but all these VA plugins make my computer sink totally, I can't use it for anything else  and I get scratches in the sound constantly, when I use them.  Just one instance of Lush 101 takes almost too much already.  The main problem is that every plugs use only one core...

I do not appricate you comparing and say that this and that know more then you about audio, just because he have released and album ?
I have been recording for many years too, it is just that I have not released anything, but there is no reason to go the sandbox level and start with personal attacks,
I have not been giving any one any personal attacks, but as you said I am entitled to an opinion I am grateful for that Mike, thank you so much. 

I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.


Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2013, 06:47:34 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
Why I have not released anything is ONLY because of economical reasons I would say, it has taking me a lot of time to save up, first for a new computer 2009, I had a really slow computer before…

Well, then it´s definitely time for a new computer also….i mean, a machine from 2009 isn´t really the BEST!

Sorry, but I couldn´t resist  :D

BTW: Releasing music isn´t depending on economical reasons - plenty of labels out there!

Yeah you are right it has become quite old. :)
Maybe you have missed the fact the Intel has no completion any more, because AMD does not release anything good.
so Intels Research team have been on vacation for a long time now.  yeah the computer is soon 4 years, but considering how slow intel
has released new CPUs I would not say it feels more like 2 years.

I use a overclocked Intel 920 (nehalem) overclocked from 2.6GHZ to 3.5GHZ
it has age pretty well if you ask me...

have you compared with benchmarks from the latest cpus from intel overlocked ?
the difference does simply not justify a upgrade... I think in the end of 2014 it will be time.. Intel will release a new cpu architecture in 14nm then it could be a big difference I hope..

for a DAW computer MHZ is more important then cores... using a apple 12 vore will not solve the problem because if one core is maxed it will not work. and plugs can mostly use on 1 core..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 06:56:19 PM by Immersion »

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2013, 06:55:52 PM »
Quote from: Immersion

To hear any difference you need first of all get the best monitors possible, I think no one can really can deny that expensive monitors sound better then cheaper ones, and I am telling you, that my new HG3 speakers have open up new dimensions. Difference that was very very subtle before now gets very clear...I think the better monitors you have the more picky you will automatically become with the rest of your chain, and maybe the stuff you have now does not sound as good as it did before.

I just have some Neumann´s and they aren´t expensive….but they are more expansive than Behringer…..but not as much as expansive than yours. So it seems like expansive is relative - right? So in your theory your monitors are better then mine just because they are more expansive - thats a funny logic….I always thought monitors are working tools and not a replacement for libido fixation  ;D

When it comes ti microphones there is some very good cheap microphones too especially from china...
When it comes to studio monitors there is without doubt a connection between sound quality and price. 3 way monitors are usually a lot more expensive.
Personally I would only go for a 3 way monitor it makes such big difference.

Your speaker might sound better but not more "true" perhaps, what speakers are you using if I might ask ?
I am sure you use professional studio monitors... with quite flat frequency response.... Maybe they sound "better" but it is not about which sound better.
I would not say my speaker sound "good" they just sound "true" they can sound ugly and totally disgusting if the production is that...that is how it should be..
but it makes a lot of music sound terrible that is for sure.. they are brutally honest... a lot of albums that sounded good before does not sound good any more in my speakers.

I think you can get speakers that sound very good for cheaper money but to have them sound true, they go up in price...

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2013, 07:17:13 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
But I can't simply find any driving force to create the music I have in my visions unless I get that dream sound I want my driving force is to take things one step further and the general production is for me for my own inner satisfaction a lot in the sound itself, ..and I am very close now in my studio where the equipment gives me really all the tools I need to realize my visions.  This was the only way for me..

Do you have some examples of music/albums on the market you would call it has this "dream sound", "clean" and "great production" you are looking for? Just 2 or 3 example i would like to hear from you so I can understand it better.



Quote from: Immersion
One of the main reason I bought my H8000 was cause I play guitar and it is just easy and inspiring tool.. one of the reason I want more outboard gear is cause I want to be less dependent on plugins I just want to be able to record more easy in real time and have things ready to record all the time, not dealing with plugs more then I have too, when I record I am always more of guy who prefer to record longer takes in real time. I am not a cut and paste guy.  Cause I want to sit down and express myself and let my mind drift away with the music.

So, you are saying you can´t record in realtime without hardware? As you have to setup software for that first, the same goes for hardware.

Quote from: Immersion
I prefer the analogue sound I use almost only virtual analogue plugins, and it is quite obvious that the real thing will sound even better then these plugins.

You should really bring concrete examples (so we can listen to the differences) instead of claiming facts all the time…."it is quite obvious" is such a meaningless phrase for instance.

Regarding albums it is simply too much to mention  and what style of music are we talking about ?
I am not only making ambient I am also making metal and rock yeah my spectrum is wide.

I can record in real time with software also but it will be easier with my H8000Fw sure...
I would not need to worry about the CPU going bezerk.. and it will be easier to just write the presets and I have a preset which equals to 10 effects in a chain and add multiple channels my daw..so it faster for me...in my DAW I would have to add long chains of effects I just want to make my work flow faster and less effortless.

I think Klaus Shuzle once said that he had only wanted to set up his workflow that he could record his music with his eyes closed, that is exactly what I am looking for..I do not want any intellectual things such as opening windows in the computer or anything to disturb my emotional music expression.  I think the more you work in the box further away you get to express yourself with emotion, it affects your state of mind.  Right now I feel it is hard to record in the right state of mind cause it is simply too much crap to deal with. It is not inspiring. But I can make it done if I want..but it crates alot more effort then it has too, that is why I want to record music more like if it was a live concert...to get this human flow in the music.

 


El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2013, 07:26:23 PM »
Quote from: Immersion
I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.

Immersion, i think you have a fundamental misunderstood about what people complaining!

Nobody is saying, that good quality isn´t appreciated - but it might be helpful to re-read your posts again and to understand how you express yourself! The problem is, that you speak about FACTS (!!!!) to whatever issue it comes. Examples from your latest post?

"To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day.."

"I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique"

As long as you speak only for your opinion then express it this way and don´t include ALL the others with your FACTS…you know as it is…opinions are like assholes…anybody has one  ;)

If you believe in what your are searching for…go for it but it´s a mistake to tell others what is the BEST, as the BEST does´t exist AT ALL….you can have the "best" gear but may fail to make music or to end up to be just a gear collector. At the end of the day, no one of the audience cares if you have Lexicon, Avaton, UAD or whatever…..for them ONLY the whole content, message and mood of the music is important - they give a shit about converters, bit rate and if the source is analogue or 100% digital. The only person who has a problem with this is actually YOU as you claim to be the "sound police".

Here are plenty people with enough experiences and they know very well what and how to archive results….if you talk ultimate about X or Y then at last prove it in some ways…either by audio examples, links or whatever…but just speaking ultimately about something without any example isn´t valuable - neither for professionals nor for starters in this forum.