Digital to analog converters

[El culto]

Regarding albums it is simply too much to mention  and what style of music are we talking about ?

I don´t mind at all - i´m open to many styles!

If there are so many to mention, then it´s very easy for you to tell me just 3!

[Castleview]

I can understand why Immersion would be passionate about having the best sound quality. However, like Tomas and others have said, music is ultimately subjective and most people can't tell the difference between the best quality and something that's just average or below that. For example, there are people out there that probably can't tell the difference between FLAC and MP3.

I think I'm going to stick with my setup for the most part and just try to improve upon using the things that I have, like Paul and I think some others suggested. I'm sure there's a lot than I can improve upon in terms of recording and production. I feel like I have good ideas and a distinct sound, so I think I can definitely build off of that and get better.

[Ekstasis]

I am very sorry that I stood up to defend good sound quality.
 I understand most people have tight budgets I have too but I prioritize..
But it is really sad that one have to defend himself about good sound quality, it is sad that it is only about getting away as
cheap as possible, it is ok but what is not ok is when they say that it sounds as good as more higher end equipment.
To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day..
I stand what what I say that soundtoys is more of sound mangle tools. But with that said it can still be useful..just don't say compare with the H8000..
that can be seen like an insult to some I can imagine...the same goes with all other equipment that is "nonsense" to buy it is also and insult of people
who invested in it... 

And it is too much talk about converters, pre amps, microphones, summing, and effects all make more difference then converters,
there are marginal difference, unless you buy a BURL which I intend to do it has a transformer which you can drive with optional level..
This kind of converter makes difference but it is really the transformer that makes the difference, but some converter might ad some kind of colours while
most are made to be discreet.

Alright I am tired now, of defending myself and sound quality as I said I find it sad that people do not have more respect for the sound and treat it as the cosmic phenomenon  it is... and try picture it on a sub atomic level in your mind...it is beautiful.

Immersion, i think you have a fundamental misunderstood about what people complaining!

Nobody is saying, that good quality isn´t appreciated - but it might be helpful to re-read your posts again and to understand how you express yourself! The problem is, that you speak about FACTS (!!!!) to whatever issue it comes. Examples from your latest post?

"To compare soundtoys with the H8000FW is like night and day.."

"I understand most people are more interested how to cheat the best possible sound with cheaper stuff and mask it in different ways with mixing technique"

As long as you speak only for your opinion then express it this way and don´t include ALL the others with your FACTS…you know as it is…opinions are like assholes…anybody has one 

If you believe in what your are searching for…go for it but it´s a mistake to tell others what is the BEST, as the BEST does´t exist AT ALL….you can have the "best" gear but may fail to make music or to end up to be just a gear collector. At the end of the day, no one of the audience cares if you have Lexicon, Avaton, UAD or whatever…..for them ONLY the whole content, message and mood of the music is important - they give a shit about converters, bit rate and if the source is analogue or 100% digital. The only person who has a problem with this is actually YOU as you claim to be the "sound police".

Here are plenty people with enough experiences and they know very well what and how to archive results….if you talk ultimate about X or Y then at last prove it in some ways…either by audio examples, links or whatever…but just speaking ultimately about something without any example isn´t valuable - neither for professionals nor for starters in this forum.

Well I guess I am not the only who to to make opinions to Facts... I try at least to be open I am always talking about that it is only it is own inner satisfaction that really matters.. You should make music for your own stimulation not for others in first hand.

Regarding soundtoys and H8000FW,  it is a matter of preference of course, but some person in this thread said that he had no need for h8000fw cause he use soundtoys, he also said that eventide was behind it, and for that reason it must also be equally as good ? should that be taken was fact ?
I have tried many plugs and when it comes "True the source" soundtoys is one of the worst,  I wish you was here so I can prove to you.

Well I was hoping about have a discussion about how creating the best sound quality possible, of course, what is best for me does not fit all,  the main argument here is that is not worth to invest money in "too expensive" equipment, cause you can mask it with eq and different mixing techniques.
I just find it to be a tragic attitude , me as a fan of pro audio would never agree with that, I just guess that some people are happy with less, some people want more, and where small differences becomes gigantic.  I know for sure that my analouge equipment I will buy will be a good investment, it will sound even better then my digital emulations.

well, you are asking for sound examples, but if you have been reading my earlier post I think you should remember
that the production should convey the atmosphere it is projecting...For instance I can really like Oophoi's more metallic lo-fi sound..
But I really like steve roach big analogue sound and robert rich...I like Asianova's really lo-fi sound.  It does not need to sound extremely high quality and super clean
it is not what it is about.

I can give you atleast of my favorite ambient albums in no particual order

Aeoga - Zenith Beyond the Helix-Locus (2005)
Aeoga - COAV (2004)
Alio Die & Mathias Grassow - Expanding Horizon (2002)
Arcana - Le serpent rouge (2004)
Asianova - Suite Dreams (2004)
Asianova - Love Like a Veiled Threat (2005)
Asianova - At the Last Gate (2006)
Asianova - Terminal Ferocity (2006)
Elend - Sunwar the Dead (2004)
Christine Groult - La condition captive (2007)
Halo Manash - Par-Antra I: VIR (2004)
Halo Manash - SYoMA (2004)
Byron Metcalf - The Shaman's Heart (2005)
Oophoi - Athlit (2002)
Oophoi - Signals From the Great Beyond (2005)
Oöphoi & Faryus - Forgotten Rituals (2007)
Oöphoi & Tau Ceti - Algol (2006)
Nick Parkin - Refract (2006)
Brian Parnham - Mantle (2007)
Robert Rich - Below Zero (1998)
Robert Rich - Somnium (2001)
Robert Rich - Illumination (2007)
Robert Rich - Live Archive Volume 4 | Alien Zoology: Live at Morrison Planetarium, San Francisco, December 9 2001 (2009)
Robert Rich & B. Lustmord - Stalker (1995)
Robert Rich & Lisa Moskow - Yearning (1995)
Steve Roach - Dreamtime Return (1988)
Steve Roach - The Magnificent Void (1996)
Steve Roach - Early Man (2000)
Steve Roach - Midnight Moon (2000)
Steve Roach - Darkest Before Dawn (2002)
Steve Roach - Mystic Chords & Sacred Spaces (2003)
Steve Roach - Immersion: Two (2006)
Steve Roach - Immersion: Three (2007)
Steve Roach - A Deeper Silence (2008)
Steve Roach & Loren Nerell - Terraform (2006)
Steve Roach, Byron Metcalf & Mark Seelig - Mantram (2004)
Seofon - Zero Point (2001)
Ure Thrall - The Bone Tree Soundtracks Vol. 2: Infinitree (2004)
U-R-I - The Bone Tree Soundtracks vol 1 (2000)
Voice of Eye - Transmigration (1995)
Zoät·Aon - Star Autopsy (2005)



List of non ambient prodcutions remember youtube is not the best audio quality


























I can go on an on.

[El culto]

…. your list….

I think i give up…

I wasn´t asking for your favorite albums, but to show just 3 simple examples where I and other interested people (following this thread) can hear the great sound and quality you are talking about! Then me and others can listen to it and make up their mind….very simple!

But, by bringing this huge list makes anything completely relative (again, i was NOT asking about your favorite albums NOR if you sometimes like lo-fi sounds)….so it really seems like you don´t want to answer my question!

I will ask again (and maybe albums are in this list): Are there 3 albums and/or tracks which represents the great sound by this special sound (clean, analogue etc) you are talking about all the time?

Well I was hoping about have a discussion about how creating the best sound quality possible, of course, what is best for me does not fit all,  the main argument here is that is not worth to invest money in "too expensive" equipment, cause you can mask it with eq and different mixing techniques.

You are clearly the master of presumptions! Please quote the person who said such a statement in this thread!….i´m sorry to say, but you won´t find anyone!

[Castleview]

Well I was hoping about have a discussion about how creating the best sound quality possible, of course, what is best for me does not fit all,  the main argument here is that is not worth to invest money in "too expensive" equipment, cause you can mask it with eq and different mixing techniques.

You are clearly the master of presumptions! Please quote the person who said such a statement in this thread!….i´m sorry to say, but you won´t find anyone!

If I had to take a guess, he might have been referring to Paul's post but even that doesn't exactly fit what Immersion seems to be referring to.

[El culto]

I can understand why Immersion would be passionate about having the best sound quality. However, like Tomas and others have said, music is ultimately subjective and most people can't tell the difference between the best quality and something that's just average or below that. For example, there are people out there that probably can't tell the difference between FLAC and MP3.

I think I'm going to stick with my setup for the most part and just try to improve upon using the things that I have, like Paul and I think some others suggested. I'm sure there's a lot than I can improve upon in terms of recording and production. I feel like I have good ideas and a distinct sound, so I think I can definitely build off of that and get better.

If it sounds right for you, it´s right! You know better than anyone else what you are looking for….and IF there is something you want to improve, you always have the chance to adjust your sound to a specific "reference" by tweaking the material or (if necessary) to update your gear. And - for the latter - there is no hurry in today as gear improves constantly and also gets cheaper in price….if you buy the same sound card now (i.e. which was 3 years ago the top notch) no one can say it´s crap just because newer stuff is available now 

[Ekstasis]

I know you asked for 3 samples, I find it a big problem to give you 3 samples that showcase all I like I have no "ultimate samples"  I am afraid, but you got the list of the albums I like so you get the idea what I am looking for.

Do not worry the list was copy paste it did not took me much time..

You are clearly the master of presumptions! Please quote the person who said such a statement in this thread!….i´m sorry to say, but you won´t find anyone!

Well I was reading it before, by more then one person, saying that the with the right "craft" you can make cheap equipment sound better then expensive equipment if you do not have the "craft".. I agree with this, but if you have the craft more high end equipment will of course sound better. My argument is why be happy with something if you can make it sound even better ?  To some people the limit seem to be even reached even with low and mid end equipment, it is personal how far you will take your sound and how much you focus on the details.   Some people send there music to mastering, I want a mastered sound always, using mostly anaouge outboard gear to create that extra "magic" in the music and take all together make all transients sound wonderful etc.  I can do all this in the box but I want to take it to the next level with the real thing instead of emulations.

[Ekstasis]

I can understand why Immersion would be passionate about having the best sound quality. However, like Tomas and others have said, music is ultimately subjective and most people can't tell the difference between the best quality and something that's just average or below that. For example, there are people out there that probably can't tell the difference between FLAC and MP3.

I think I'm going to stick with my setup for the most part and just try to improve upon using the things that I have, like Paul and I think some others suggested. I'm sure there's a lot than I can improve upon in terms of recording and production. I feel like I have good ideas and a distinct sound, so I think I can definitely build off of that and get better.

If it sounds right for you, it´s right! You know better than anyone else what you are looking for….and IF there is something you want to improve, you always have the chance to adjust your sound to a specific "reference" by tweaking the material or (if necessary) to update your gear. And - for the latter - there is no hurry in today as gear improves constantly and also gets cheaper in price….if you buy the same sound card now (i.e. which was 3 years ago the top notch) no one can say it´s crap just because newer stuff is available now 

Yes, I think we all know what is best and the most ultimate sound for ourselves.. every one has it's own personal and "superior" taste... so yeah there is nothing really wrong..  My first album that got me into ambient was Robert Rich - Stalker, so already then I did set my bar quite high..

Well I am sorry to tell you, but I find some kind of time pressure, I am reaching 30, I am starting to realize you do not live forever, and life is short.
I also know artistic creativity is not exactly something that gets easier with the years, I still have it in me, but let see how it is when I am starting to reach 40.
So it feels like a battle against the time... I wish I could slow down time...

I am trying to buy stuff that will age well, that will keep is value if I sell it also, and most high end stuff age well also and have good second hand value...
the Lynx Aurora I am selling now I sell for more then what I bought it for.

My Trident HG3 they have actually dropped a lot in price since I bought them.  I bought them for 5,045.57 USD they are now down to 3,799.37 USD, but I think that price is stabilized now for a long time.

[mgriffin]

Well I was reading it before, by more then one person, saying that the with the right "craft" you can make cheap equipment sound better then expensive equipment if you do not have the "craft".

Dude, nobody said this. Repeat it as many times as you like... nobody said cheap sounds better than expensive equipment. Most of us have very expensive recording studios, probably more valuable than our automobiles. I have a nice new Audi, but my studio gear was more expensive than my car. I am not arguing in favor of cheap gear. Nobody is arguing in favor of cheap gear.

The argument is that "more expensive" is not the highest goal.

[Julio Di Benedetto]

I think I'm going to stick with my setup for the most part and just try to improve upon using the things that I have, like Paul and I think some others suggested. I'm sure there's a lot than I can improve upon in terms of recording and production. I feel like I have good ideas and a distinct sound, so I think I can definitely build off of that and get better.

Thats the best advice Ive heard.....and you said it yourself.

In time as your sonic ideas & skill grow you will find that the equipment you use will advance along with you.

[mgriffin]

My last post reads like I'm boasting about having expensive things -- I'd like to add a note of clarification, just to say that wasn't the point of my post. My studio has been a cumulative expenditure over almost 20 years, a little at a time.

I was just expressing frustration about the mis-characterization of my earlier argument, to say that I believed cheap equipment was just as good as expensive equipment, trying to point out that I have plenty of expensive equipment and wouldn't have spent the money if I believed cheap equipment to be just as good.

[hdibrell]

[/quote]

Well I am sorry to tell you, but I find some kind of time pressure, I am reaching 30, I am starting to realize you do not live forever, and life is short.
I also know artistic creativity is not exactly something that gets easier with the years, I still have it in me, but let see how it is when I am starting to reach 40.
So it feels like a battle against the time... I wish I could slow down time...
[/quote]          Hopefully you will still be able to dress and feed yourself by the time you reach 40. 

[Castleview]

Well I'm only 23 so I've got plenty of time. 

[Altus]

I'll be turning 36 soon. I don't need a cane yet, but I'm sure I will soon enough. 

[Ekstasis]

Well I'm only 23 so I've got plenty of time. 

Let's switch. But in fact, I feel more like 23 honestly, but I know still that the time is limited on this earth.
And another thing I do not live a healthy life, I sit in front the computer majority of the time I do not think about what I eat mostly fat food.  I wish I did more physical activity, it actually gives you more energy and make you more creativity and makes you live longer.

[hdibrell]

Well, I'm 62 and I still remember where I live a lot of the time.

[Seren]

wow, it is always interesting to return to something after a few days away and find a thread has been burning 'very hot'.

Immersion, I'm not sure why but you seem to missread people's posts and what they are trying to communicate - at the same time your own posts sound quite 'harsh', and I would be surprised if that was your intention.

Such levels of seeming judgement do not go down well in general.

I too had not read anybody saying that 'cheap' equipment is better than 'expensive' equipment - What I was reading is that everyone has to find their own way with what they can afford and what they can do.

Unfortunately I don't have the finances to even consider the equipment you are buying. You are very lucky to be able to do so and I hope that the equipment brings you the enjoyment and satisfaction you are chasing.

You mentioned Oophoi in your list of examples of good music - Oophoi released my music (and I've never shared this before) because he was amazed with the creativity with which I used the equipment I had - a Korg D16 and almost nothing else. Oophoi also described to me his favourite source and effects chain and surprisingly it did not include the high end equipment I or others might have expected.

Personally I value that sort of support and interaction from experienced and longstanding musicians more than anything else.

[Seren]

further thoughts.

Immersion, your enthusiasm and energy is very obvious in all your posts, these are qualities that everyone on the forum appreciates and will happily support in discussion and with any advice they can muster from their own experience.

Your commitment and focus to your own vision is also very clear. Again I believe these are qualities also valued here, especially as many of us will have already needed to show similar level of commitment to bring into reality that which we have dreamt of manifesting, in whichever field of endeavour is important to us.

A couple of years ago I spent (for me) a considerable sum on a pair of headphones for both listening and monitoring purposes. I always appreciate the increase in quality that improvements in my gear bring. But for me having the 'best' equipment is a dream and the challenge is making the best of what I actually have.

I think you would find that no one here looks down on good equipment....(please correct me everyone else if I am wrong....)

You come across as very 'driven', and this creates a feel to your language that comes across as an attack because you appear to allow no other viewpoint than your own - which makes it very hard to have an open discussion, considering pros and cons, ups and downs. It makes people feel that if you already think you have the answers, why bother asking the question and then belittle the answers that people give you.



I find my ears are the best equipment I have and that no gadget of any form actually recreates the sounds I hear when I am in a natural environment, such as deep in the forest, where there are few intrusions of 'human sounds'.

My most used piece of equipment? The drummers stool I sit on when in the studio - it is an essential part of every recording I have made and at £30 or so was a bargain.

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

[Julio Di Benedetto]

Well, I'm 62 and I still remember where I live a lot of the time.

LOL 

[Julio Di Benedetto]

You mentioned Oophoi in your list of examples of good music - Oophoi released my music (and I've never shared this before) because he was amazed with the creativity with which I used the equipment I had - a Korg D16 and almost nothing else. Oophoi also described to me his favourite source and effects chain and surprisingly it did not include the high end equipment I or others might have expected.

A poorly made Katana Sword in the hands of a skilled Samurai is just as deadly as one perfectly crafted by a master swordsmith.......not a poetic image but something that was once said to me.