Author Topic: Digital to analog converters  (Read 38608 times)

hdibrell

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2013, 04:05:15 PM »



[/quote]

Well I am sorry to tell you, but I find some kind of time pressure, I am reaching 30, I am starting to realize you do not live forever, and life is short.
I also know artistic creativity is not exactly something that gets easier with the years, I still have it in me, but let see how it is when I am starting to reach 40.
So it feels like a battle against the time... I wish I could slow down time...
[/quote]          Hopefully you will still be able to dress and feed yourself by the time you reach 40.  ;)
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kickboxing.

Castleview

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
Well I'm only 23 so I've got plenty of time.  :)
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Altus

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2013, 04:45:56 PM »
I'll be turning 36 soon. I don't need a cane yet, but I'm sure I will soon enough.  ::)
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hdibrell

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2013, 05:56:47 PM »
Well, I'm 62 and I still remember where I live a lot of the time.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kickboxing.

Seren

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2013, 02:31:00 AM »
wow, it is always interesting to return to something after a few days away and find a thread has been burning 'very hot'.

Immersion, I'm not sure why but you seem to missread people's posts and what they are trying to communicate - at the same time your own posts sound quite 'harsh', and I would be surprised if that was your intention.

Such levels of seeming judgement do not go down well in general.

I too had not read anybody saying that 'cheap' equipment is better than 'expensive' equipment - What I was reading is that everyone has to find their own way with what they can afford and what they can do.

Unfortunately I don't have the finances to even consider the equipment you are buying. You are very lucky to be able to do so and I hope that the equipment brings you the enjoyment and satisfaction you are chasing.

You mentioned Oophoi in your list of examples of good music - Oophoi released my music (and I've never shared this before) because he was amazed with the creativity with which I used the equipment I had - a Korg D16 and almost nothing else. Oophoi also described to me his favourite source and effects chain and surprisingly it did not include the high end equipment I or others might have expected.

Personally I value that sort of support and interaction from experienced and longstanding musicians more than anything else.

Seren

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2013, 05:46:58 AM »
further thoughts.

Immersion, your enthusiasm and energy is very obvious in all your posts, these are qualities that everyone on the forum appreciates and will happily support in discussion and with any advice they can muster from their own experience.

Your commitment and focus to your own vision is also very clear. Again I believe these are qualities also valued here, especially as many of us will have already needed to show similar level of commitment to bring into reality that which we have dreamt of manifesting, in whichever field of endeavour is important to us.

A couple of years ago I spent (for me) a considerable sum on a pair of headphones for both listening and monitoring purposes. I always appreciate the increase in quality that improvements in my gear bring. But for me having the 'best' equipment is a dream and the challenge is making the best of what I actually have.

I think you would find that no one here looks down on good equipment....(please correct me everyone else if I am wrong....)

You come across as very 'driven', and this creates a feel to your language that comes across as an attack because you appear to allow no other viewpoint than your own - which makes it very hard to have an open discussion, considering pros and cons, ups and downs. It makes people feel that if you already think you have the answers, why bother asking the question and then belittle the answers that people give you.



I find my ears are the best equipment I have and that no gadget of any form actually recreates the sounds I hear when I am in a natural environment, such as deep in the forest, where there are few intrusions of 'human sounds'.

My most used piece of equipment? The drummers stool I sit on when in the studio - it is an essential part of every recording I have made and at 30 or so was a bargain.

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2013, 06:12:45 AM »
Well, I'm 62 and I still remember where I live a lot of the time.

LOL  ;D
"Life is one big road, with lots of signs, so when you ride to the Roots, do not complicate your mind, ... "  Bob Marley

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Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2013, 06:52:46 AM »

You mentioned Oophoi in your list of examples of good music - Oophoi released my music (and I've never shared this before) because he was amazed with the creativity with which I used the equipment I had - a Korg D16 and almost nothing else. Oophoi also described to me his favourite source and effects chain and surprisingly it did not include the high end equipment I or others might have expected.


A poorly made Katana Sword in the hands of a skilled Samurai is just as deadly as one perfectly crafted by a master swordsmith.......not a poetic image but something that was once said to me.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:54:57 AM by Julio Di Benedetto »
"Life is one big road, with lots of signs, so when you ride to the Roots, do not complicate your mind, ... "  Bob Marley

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El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2013, 06:54:18 AM »
Quote from: Seren

I think you would find that no one here looks down on good equipment....(please correct me everyone else if I am wrong....)

Just had a quick look around and I think i disagree!  ;D


Seren

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2013, 07:30:38 AM »
 8)

Castleview

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2013, 09:23:57 AM »
Somebody here should make an album with just that keyboard.
http://castleview.bandcamp.com/
New album, Elemental Wave, available now on Black Dingo Records:
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APK

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
That beast is way out of my price range.
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hdibrell

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2013, 02:40:32 PM »
That beast is way out of my price range.
;D
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kickboxing.

Scott M2

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2013, 08:11:49 PM »
This is a good example where having so many sonic options becomes a barrier to finishing your music!

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2013, 02:48:09 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #95 on: November 26, 2013, 04:21:37 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

OK, i have a question:

What is a clear sound?.. and more important how it sounds like?

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #96 on: November 26, 2013, 05:42:03 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

OK, i have a question:

What is a clear sound?.. and more important how it sounds like?

simply where all details and nuances is coming through,, it is clean and fairly colorless or subtle color in the right parts of the chain,  or that you can control the amount of color is even best. If you cant control it you will be stuck with a certain sound. at least for me that does not work cause I work with so many different styles of music. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 05:52:46 PM by Immersion »

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #97 on: November 26, 2013, 10:12:25 PM »
Ok...time to wade back into these waters.


- Interesting to hear Paul say he has forsaken the hardware for software reverbs.  8)

You know, 3 years ago I would have been one of the snobs scoffing at computer/software reverbs and claiming that in no way could a software reverb ever compete with hardware. This is why I had an H8000FW a few Lexicon units ranging from the MPX-1 on up to the PCM's , I also had a TC M3000, a Roland SRV-330 and an Eventide Eclipse.

Then a switch was flicked and companies got it. In my opinion the Lexicon PCM collection is equal to the hardware PCM-96 and is easier to program. Universal Audio got the rights and the white papers and even worked with the original developers to put THE EXACT algorithms of the Lexicon 224 and the EMT240 into the UAD-2 card. The only thing lacking is the original low bit D to A converters and even that was modeled. There are countless others that are amazing.

The H8000FW is an amazing and perhaps the most amazing multi-fx box ever made, but as Immersion pointed out (or Mr. Roach told him) it is a way of life. As a father of 3 and a full time working audio engineer, I do not have the luxury to dig into a box that deep. Plus its programing is very archaic. You need a corse in hieroglyphics. If it had a good computer editor I may have kept it, but at $5500 it sat unused in my room unless I was playing live...IE not a good use of $$$ So I traded it to the owner of a high end mic company for two of his mics, one which I the sold, and one that really made a bigger difference in my studio than any mic before it. Win, win!

Immersion sorry to refute you but I CAN do everything the H8000FW did inside the computer with my various reverbs, and SoundToys plugins, UA plug-ins and PSP plug-ins. I can also do all of that with the same stunning sound quality and sonic integrity. This is not bragging, its just a fact of how I work and what I can do. The H8000FW is a sound-mangling effects box first and a reverb unit second. To buy it as a reverb box alone is a colossal waist of money in my opinion. Also pulling up effects plug-ins in the computer and chaining them is way easier than working with the Eventide. Again this is my opinion and how I prefer to work.

Please don't take this as bragging but I have had a 15 plus year career (you know where you get paid money for your work) of doing sound design libraries for various companies and in reviews of said product, as with my albums sound quality has always been mentioned as stellar.

I really am not trying to be rude, really I am not and if we were talking face to face maybe I would not sound like such a jerk but I just need to point out as Mike has more politely than me tried to point out, there are actual working pros on this thread who are staggered by your empirical statements of what is the best pieces of gear for "ambient" music. I actually find it demeaning to myself, and to many of the others here when you say things like "purity of sound and ultimate clarity and quality may not be as important to us as it is to you"...or what ever, I know I am paraphrasing. I mean seriously...my gut reaction is "do you know who you are talking to?" Most of the folks here have 10x the experience you do and you may do well to chill and listen a bit! You may just learn something.

I just ask, where are you getting all of your advice from??? Gearslutz??? The reason I ask is, you have all of your facts of whats great and what is the best...but I have mine, Mike has his, APK has his, so maybe just tone it down to "I am thinking about getting this or that because its what I want and its what I think or have been told will do a good job for me, what do you guys think" Rather than the assumed, "everyone knows this is the best, or that is the best widget in all of creation."

You see a conversation is when one party says I like this and here is why, what do think? Then the other says, I am not sure, I have always like this better, maybe you should check it out, but I am curious about what you just brought up...and so on."

Dude trust me I have been there, right where you are, I have! I chased sound purity for years, I have driven collaborators nuts with my obsession for scrubbing out noise and the clarity of gear, and in the end it got in the way of the music more often than not.

The two best pieces of advice that I have ever received over the years are:

1. NEVER BUY ANYTHING ON REPUTATION ALONE!!! ALWAYS WHEN POSSIBLE TRY IT FIRST!
2. NEVER BUY MORE THAN ONE OR TWO PIECES OF GEAR AT A TIME! IE-learn one, master it learn its strengths and limits and THEN add more.

Dude you already have great converters, nice monitors and the king of effects boxes...STOP NOW!

Learning the what the H8000 can do should take quite some time, enjoy that time. the think about compressors or other effects and synths or converters.

Lastly one other bit of factual nonsense...

3-Way monitors are a very poor choice for monitoring unless your room is big enough to have the throw where they can do their job, so telling others that everyone knows 3-ways are the best, is inaccurate if their rooms cannot accommodate them.

I once asked a respected person in the audio industry, a person who has demoed, used, reviewed and tried literally 100's of monitors, what his favorites were, and his answer was like a zen master. He told me "The best ones are the ones which YOU can mix on".

In my room I use a 2.1 KRK E8b set up, I also have a pair of smaller 5" Genelecs, and a small set of $40 computer speakers and I mix on all 3. In my editing suite at my day job doing audio for videos, podcasts and streaming I use a set of MKIII KRK Rockit 5's and at home I have Ribbon Tweetered Emotiva Pros. I can mix on any of them. Do I prefer my E8's ??? Yep. Do I wish I had Barefoot's Yep!

I do agree with you that monitors and converters are of utmost importance and often, because they are not fun toys most people leave them till last and I do think that is a mistake if you want to be a studio engineer. If you just want to be a musician, then get some instruments that inspire you! Even before getting great monitors and converters here is a Gearslutz mantra I wholeheartedly agree with treat your room!!! Treat Your Room!!! Treat Your Room!!! Spend $500 to $1000 making your room acoustically sound and it will make all of your gear sound better. Some may disagree, but when I converted my studio from a room with some gear in it, to a balanced and treated workspace it was night and day, and my work became easier.

Ok, I am done for now in this thread. Sorry if you think I am a jerk of the highest order, not my intention, but there it is.
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Seren

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #98 on: November 27, 2013, 01:40:21 AM »
Great Post Paul.

I hope, one day, to have a room for a studio good enough to treat...I now know where to come for advice if I achieve it - start a thread.....

mgriffin

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2013, 09:51:13 AM »
I think of technical discussion and gear recommendations as being, ideally, a fun and positive exchange of ideas and suggestions. It's unfortunate when things should turn unpleasant, or when someone else's ideas are dismissed.

Personally I to see insight into the tools and working methods of some of the more experience forum members -- Paul, APK, Loren, Forrest, and many others. Rather than being frustrated or annoyed when one of them does something in a different way from how I have always done it, instead of thinking "Why do they do it like that? Everybody knows it's better to do it like THIS!" -- I think to myself, "That's interesting. It's different from how I work, so what can I learn from it?"

Many of the instruments, recording devices, effects, pieces of computer hardware and software that I use, I can remember back to when I first heard a friend or fellow recording artist or engineer mention it, or show it to me.

The only negative aspect to discussions like this should be that occasionally, they inspire "gear lust" and make us spend money on equipment we might not otherwise buy!
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