Author Topic: Digital to analog converters  (Read 5129 times)

El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2013, 06:54:18 AM »
Quote from: Seren

I think you would find that no one here looks down on good equipment....(please correct me everyone else if I am wrong....)


Just had a quick look around and I think i disagree!  ;D



Castleview

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2013, 09:23:57 AM »
Somebody here should make an album with just that keyboard.

APK

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2013, 11:10:47 AM »
That beast is way out of my price range.
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hdibrell

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2013, 02:40:32 PM »
That beast is way out of my price range.
;D
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Scott M2

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #105 on: November 25, 2013, 08:11:49 PM »
This is a good example where having so many sonic options becomes a barrier to finishing your music!

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #106 on: November 26, 2013, 02:48:09 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

El culto

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #107 on: November 26, 2013, 04:21:37 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

OK, i have a question:

What is a clear sound?.. and more important how it sounds like?

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #108 on: November 26, 2013, 05:42:03 PM »

One thing I have not understood from your posts is that you are focussed on 'clear' and 'true' sound - but you did mention that you like to "color and saturate sound, driving transformers hard, create harmonics etc" - how do you relate these 2 things as they appear contradictory at first read.

I said earlier,  that if your system provide a "clear" sound you have more control if you want to color it. That was my argument.  If there always is a certain color, you will be stuck with it.  Also all these so called coloring do of course benefit if your system is clean sounding otherwise colors will be mixed in maybe an unwanted way.
Both my Pre amps and converters I intend to buy are veristile and you can yourself choose the amount of color from very clean to saturated.

OK, i have a question:

What is a clear sound?.. and more important how it sounds like?

simply where all details and nuances is coming through,, it is clean and fairly colorless or subtle color in the right parts of the chain,  or that you can control the amount of color is even best. If you cant control it you will be stuck with a certain sound. at least for me that does not work cause I work with so many different styles of music. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 05:52:46 PM by Immersion »

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2013, 10:12:25 PM »
Ok...time to wade back into these waters.


- Interesting to hear Paul say he has forsaken the hardware for software reverbs.  8)

You know, 3 years ago I would have been one of the snobs scoffing at computer/software reverbs and claiming that in no way could a software reverb ever compete with hardware. This is why I had an H8000FW a few Lexicon units ranging from the MPX-1 on up to the PCM's , I also had a TC M3000, a Roland SRV-330 and an Eventide Eclipse.

Then a switch was flicked and companies got it. In my opinion the Lexicon PCM collection is equal to the hardware PCM-96 and is easier to program. Universal Audio got the rights and the white papers and even worked with the original developers to put THE EXACT algorithms of the Lexicon 224 and the EMT240 into the UAD-2 card. The only thing lacking is the original low bit D to A converters and even that was modeled. There are countless others that are amazing.

The H8000FW is an amazing and perhaps the most amazing multi-fx box ever made, but as Immersion pointed out (or Mr. Roach told him) it is a way of life. As a father of 3 and a full time working audio engineer, I do not have the luxury to dig into a box that deep. Plus its programing is very archaic. You need a corse in hieroglyphics. If it had a good computer editor I may have kept it, but at $5500 it sat unused in my room unless I was playing live...IE not a good use of $$$ So I traded it to the owner of a high end mic company for two of his mics, one which I the sold, and one that really made a bigger difference in my studio than any mic before it. Win, win!

Immersion sorry to refute you but I CAN do everything the H8000FW did inside the computer with my various reverbs, and SoundToys plugins, UA plug-ins and PSP plug-ins. I can also do all of that with the same stunning sound quality and sonic integrity. This is not bragging, its just a fact of how I work and what I can do. The H8000FW is a sound-mangling effects box first and a reverb unit second. To buy it as a reverb box alone is a colossal waist of money in my opinion. Also pulling up effects plug-ins in the computer and chaining them is way easier than working with the Eventide. Again this is my opinion and how I prefer to work.

Please don't take this as bragging but I have had a 15 plus year career (you know where you get paid money for your work) of doing sound design libraries for various companies and in reviews of said product, as with my albums sound quality has always been mentioned as stellar.

I really am not trying to be rude, really I am not and if we were talking face to face maybe I would not sound like such a jerk but I just need to point out as Mike has more politely than me tried to point out, there are actual working pros on this thread who are staggered by your empirical statements of what is the best pieces of gear for "ambient" music. I actually find it demeaning to myself, and to many of the others here when you say things like "purity of sound and ultimate clarity and quality may not be as important to us as it is to you"...or what ever, I know I am paraphrasing. I mean seriously...my gut reaction is "do you know who you are talking to?" Most of the folks here have 10x the experience you do and you may do well to chill and listen a bit! You may just learn something.

I just ask, where are you getting all of your advice from??? Gearslutz??? The reason I ask is, you have all of your facts of whats great and what is the best...but I have mine, Mike has his, APK has his, so maybe just tone it down to "I am thinking about getting this or that because its what I want and its what I think or have been told will do a good job for me, what do you guys think" Rather than the assumed, "everyone knows this is the best, or that is the best widget in all of creation."

You see a conversation is when one party says I like this and here is why, what do think? Then the other says, I am not sure, I have always like this better, maybe you should check it out, but I am curious about what you just brought up...and so on."

Dude trust me I have been there, right where you are, I have! I chased sound purity for years, I have driven collaborators nuts with my obsession for scrubbing out noise and the clarity of gear, and in the end it got in the way of the music more often than not.

The two best pieces of advice that I have ever received over the years are:

1. NEVER BUY ANYTHING ON REPUTATION ALONE!!! ALWAYS WHEN POSSIBLE TRY IT FIRST!
2. NEVER BUY MORE THAN ONE OR TWO PIECES OF GEAR AT A TIME! IE-learn one, master it learn its strengths and limits and THEN add more.

Dude you already have great converters, nice monitors and the king of effects boxes...STOP NOW!

Learning the what the H8000 can do should take quite some time, enjoy that time. the think about compressors or other effects and synths or converters.

Lastly one other bit of factual nonsense...

3-Way monitors are a very poor choice for monitoring unless your room is big enough to have the throw where they can do their job, so telling others that everyone knows 3-ways are the best, is inaccurate if their rooms cannot accommodate them.

I once asked a respected person in the audio industry, a person who has demoed, used, reviewed and tried literally 100's of monitors, what his favorites were, and his answer was like a zen master. He told me "The best ones are the ones which YOU can mix on".

In my room I use a 2.1 KRK E8b set up, I also have a pair of smaller 5" Genelecs, and a small set of $40 computer speakers and I mix on all 3. In my editing suite at my day job doing audio for videos, podcasts and streaming I use a set of MKIII KRK Rockit 5's and at home I have Ribbon Tweetered Emotiva Pros. I can mix on any of them. Do I prefer my E8's ??? Yep. Do I wish I had Barefoot's Yep!

I do agree with you that monitors and converters are of utmost importance and often, because they are not fun toys most people leave them till last and I do think that is a mistake if you want to be a studio engineer. If you just want to be a musician, then get some instruments that inspire you! Even before getting great monitors and converters here is a Gearslutz mantra I wholeheartedly agree with treat your room!!! Treat Your Room!!! Treat Your Room!!! Spend $500 to $1000 making your room acoustically sound and it will make all of your gear sound better. Some may disagree, but when I converted my studio from a room with some gear in it, to a balanced and treated workspace it was night and day, and my work became easier.

Ok, I am done for now in this thread. Sorry if you think I am a jerk of the highest order, not my intention, but there it is.
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Seren

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #110 on: November 27, 2013, 01:40:21 AM »
Great Post Paul.

I hope, one day, to have a room for a studio good enough to treat...I now know where to come for advice if I achieve it - start a thread.....

mgriffin

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #111 on: November 27, 2013, 09:51:13 AM »
I think of technical discussion and gear recommendations as being, ideally, a fun and positive exchange of ideas and suggestions. It's unfortunate when things should turn unpleasant, or when someone else's ideas are dismissed.

Personally I to see insight into the tools and working methods of some of the more experience forum members -- Paul, APK, Loren, Forrest, and many others. Rather than being frustrated or annoyed when one of them does something in a different way from how I have always done it, instead of thinking "Why do they do it like that? Everybody knows it's better to do it like THIS!" -- I think to myself, "That's interesting. It's different from how I work, so what can I learn from it?"

Many of the instruments, recording devices, effects, pieces of computer hardware and software that I use, I can remember back to when I first heard a friend or fellow recording artist or engineer mention it, or show it to me.

The only negative aspect to discussions like this should be that occasionally, they inspire "gear lust" and make us spend money on equipment we might not otherwise buy!
[ Mike Griffin, Hypnos Recordings ] email mg (at) hypnos.com | http://hypnos.com | http://twitter.com/mgsoundvisions

Castleview

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #112 on: November 27, 2013, 11:28:47 AM »
I think of technical discussion and gear recommendations as being, ideally, a fun and positive exchange of ideas and suggestions. It's unfortunate when things should turn unpleasant, or when someone else's ideas are dismissed.

Personally I to see insight into the tools and working methods of some of the more experience forum members -- Paul, APK, Loren, Forrest, and many others. Rather than being frustrated or annoyed when one of them does something in a different way from how I have always done it, instead of thinking "Why do they do it like that? Everybody knows it's better to do it like THIS!" -- I think to myself, "That's interesting. It's different from how I work, so what can I learn from it?"

Many of the instruments, recording devices, effects, pieces of computer hardware and software that I use, I can remember back to when I first heard a friend or fellow recording artist or engineer mention it, or show it to me.

The only negative aspect to discussions like this should be that occasionally, they inspire "gear lust" and make us spend money on equipment we might not otherwise buy!

Well, it could have turned out a lot worse. Yeah, Immersion was a bit elitist here but I don't think he was being malicious. I've seen much worse on other forums, usually about more polarizing topics though.

If this is the nastiest and most vicious discussion to ever happen here, this forum is in great shape.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 11:30:18 AM by Castleview »

mgriffin

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »
I didn't mean to say that Immersion said anything very bad. I just wanted to remind people here that exchanging information is supposed to be an enjoyable, reciprocal learning experience.
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Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2013, 03:11:24 PM »


You know, 3 years ago I would have been one of the snobs scoffing at computer/software reverbs and claiming that in no way could a software reverb ever compete with hardware. This is why I had an H8000FW a few Lexicon units ranging from the MPX-1 on up to the PCM's , I also had a TC M3000, a Roland SRV-330 and an Eventide Eclipse.
---------
Yes that is right, thanks to Lexicon PCM native, a lexicon box is not really needed anymore.
the lexicon plugin was really the most perfect release one could wish for...especially since it
did use a very little cpu.. probably cause of the algorithms has been optimized for 30 years or so..However, if you do not want the Lexicon flavor there is less alternatives, There is the Eventide Blackhole reverb, but for me eventide is not just about the reverbs but the whole package of effects used simultaneously.

For ambient really if you have the Lexicon or even Ariesverb, you can mix in the box for
sure...

There is one reverb box called Bricasti M7, it is supposed to be the most powerful reverb box right now, and it sound unlike any other reverb out there, it is the most realistic reverb, the designer described at it is 10 reverbs in 1 box, of these 10 reverbs each reverb have is responsible for certain frequencies and room placements.  I wish I could hear it with my own ears, it is a lot of hype about it, and it is a true stereo reverb, unlike for instanance lexicon which does sum the signal to mono.  The Designer said there is not possiblity to runt this on a x86/x64 platform, so there will be no plugin.  From what I have heard the M7 is the cutting edge in reverb right now, I am unsure how it is for more unreal hall reverbs... hopefully more realistic and true to the source and detailed.
 

Then a switch was flicked and companies got it. In my opinion the Lexicon PCM collection is equal to the hardware PCM-96 and is easier to program. Universal Audio got the rights and the white papers and even worked with the original developers to put THE EXACT algorithms of the Lexicon 224 and the EMT240 into the UAD-2 card. The only thing lacking is the original low bit D to A converters and even that was modeled. There are countless others that are amazing.

-------

yes the converters coloring and saturation is not modelled in the PCM native, for instance some people really like the PCM70 for that reason, even PCM91 sounds different compared to the plugin, but on the other hand the plugin sounds even more clean.  You can add the color you want in your daw or with outboard gear..so no problem really..just gives you more control.  Relab did a lexicon emulation of Lexicon 480L, they did model the converter saturation too..I can recommend it, it is less 3D then the PCM native..but could be used as a good alternative.


---------

The H8000FW is an amazing and perhaps the most amazing multi-fx box ever made, but as Immersion pointed out (or Mr. Roach told him) it is a way of life. As a father of 3 and a full time working audio engineer, I do not have the luxury to dig into a box that deep. Plus its programing is very archaic. You need a corse in hieroglyphics. If it had a good computer editor I may have kept it, but at $5500 it sat unused in my room unless I was playing live...IE not a good use of $$$ So I traded it to the owner of a high end mic company for two of his mics, one which I the sold, and one that really made a bigger difference in my studio than any mic before it. Win, win!

-----------------------------

Yeah I understand what you mean, it is unfortunate that it is soo hard to program, I do not plan to spend much time with Vsig in any recent future,  I know the presets are very good, you can come far with just slightly modify each preset according to your taste,  to make your own preset from scratch is more of an science.  The box are made to get good and fast response easy if you use the presets as template... but also you can go as deep as you can with vsig.  I will se if I buy the EVE/NET controller it seem most people say it is definitely worth the money but it is very expensive unit, kind of a robbery for just a controller, but I guess it makes the life a lot easier.  For a guitarist like me I will definitely have more use for it.


--------
Immersion sorry to refute you but I CAN do everything the H8000FW did inside the computer with my various reverbs, and SoundToys plugins, UA plug-ins and PSP plug-ins. I can also do all of that with the same stunning sound quality and sonic integrity. This is not bragging, its just a fact of how I work and what I can do. The H8000FW is a sound-mangling effects box first and a reverb unit second. To buy it as a reverb box alone is a colossal waist of money in my opinion. Also pulling up effects plug-ins in the computer and chaining them is way easier than working with the Eventide. Again this is my opinion and how I prefer to work.

-------

Well I am glad for you, you tell me know you use a lot of other plugins UAD etc..
anyway I am not impressed with sound toys, but it is the best I have for effects right now
in the computer unfortunately, they can still be good for sound mangling.. and to transform sounds..  Regarding that if it is easier to pull up plugins then putting up a preset in the Eventide, well I told you before maybe you forgot I wrote it, but one eventide Presets can consist of many elements each represent a plugin, delay, reverb, pitch shifting,  modulation etc, to get that eventide sound you need to open up a lot of plugins, when you can do it with one click with the box..also..saves a lot of cpu since especially high quality effects true the source eats the cpu totally. It is also good for live improvisiation, which is the way I tend to work, when I create music I would prefer to work as much outside of the computer as possible cause I do not want to be drawn into an intellectual state of mind which is very easy when you stare at the computer screen in front of you, I do best music when I have my eyes closed.




-------
Please don't take this as bragging but I have had a 15 plus year career (you know where you get paid money for your work) of doing sound design libraries for various companies and in reviews of said product, as with my albums sound quality has always been mentioned as stellar.

-----

I respect yout 15 years of experience and career...I like your first album...Silence speaks in the shadow, so I am not questioning your expertise... but even in the real of pro audio..there is also highly different opinion about anything.. to find consensus about everything is not possible.. all have different ideas and taste...of what is best. I did go in school in studio recording for a few months, I did start reading studio magazines an forums in 2005, but learned a lot myself.  And I soon have my own studio finally.  But I have recorded a lot of real time improvisations on my computer though, it is just that I do not feel I want do anything with these recordings unless I can get them as good as imagined, so my so called career have been delayed many years..due economical reasons.. which really have been taking away a lot of important years from my life really.  But maybe it will turned out to be a good thing that I waited I hope so cause I am now more prepared.



I really am not trying to be rude, really I am not and if we were talking face to face maybe I would not sound like such a jerk but I just need to point out as Mike has more politely than me tried to point out, there are actual working pros on this thread who are staggered by your empirical statements of what is the best pieces of gear for "ambient" music. I actually find it demeaning to myself, and to many of the others here when you say things like "purity of sound and ultimate clarity and quality may not be as important to us as it is to you"...or what ever, I know I am paraphrasing. I mean seriously...my gut reaction is "do you know who you are talking to?" Most of the folks here have 10x the experience you do and you may do well to chill and listen a bit! You may just learn something.

-------

There is a lot of talk about 10 years of experience, and 15 years of experience it is really  not anything that is revelation to the discussion there is a lot of artists that have life long careers, as a musician and producer is a lot about your taste and sense of audio , some one have it some have not.  Of course I understand you did might not say it directely but indirectly, the whole general attitude seemed to be that you could get away with bad equipment with the right skills.. I told many times this correct but to a certain level, to beyond a certain thresold you really need more then good skills you also need good tools and equipments.

I guess I was kind of tired of people who just was talking about how to compromise the sound and to get away with as little money as possible buy replacing really quality hardware and analogue gear with software emulations,  I think this is fine, if people want to do that, as long as they are satisfied,  as long as you agree that you come to a certain point where where just pure skill and craft will not be enough to get things done the way you are imagine it. The discussion did turn out in the begging that plugins are the salvations and all outboard gear is just overpriced and expensive and not really worth the money when you have cheap plugs that do the "same".

I am aware you might not said it directly but indirectly the discussion did go in that direction
And Personally for me when soundtoys was compared to the H8000, I could not hold myself anymore I am sorry. I have used soundtoys plugins for many years now, I know them very well...I guess we most have radically different standards when it comes to satisfisfaction, as I said they can sound good but they also destroy the source, especailly the high end, and for me personally I have absolutely no idea how you would not notice that..I am sorry to tell you but for me it is really beyond my mind.  But the most important part is that you are happy, obviously there is people who like soundtoys and people who do not, but I think you are in absolute minority to claim that soundtoys can replace the H8000.  It is really the first time I have heard such claim by any one so...do not take it personally please.


-------
Dude trust me I have been there, right where you are, I have! I chased sound purity for years, I have driven collaborators nuts with my obsession for scrubbing out noise and the clarity of gear, and in the end it got in the way of the music more often than not.

I can say we clerly are not the same. For me I aim for control of the sound, if I an a natural and clear sound in my system to begin with I can then add every color I want, if I want to add noise, tape noise or whatever I can do so.  I do not like that kind of professionals that everything is supposed to be super clean, it should be that if it fits the sound only, but I would never generalize and say that it would always be super clean etc...it all depends on what music.. that is the way I think... I prefer to against all traditional methods and just let my gears guide me. Not many people in 2013 would add tape noise in their recording, but I do cause my ears like it. But it goes against all rules in the "book". But I do not follow any books.. I think no one should but you should know the basics.. knowledge is good but there is no real rules it is only the final results that matter.

--------




Dude you already have great converters, nice monitors and the king of effects boxes...STOP NOW!

I wish I could, I have still not sold my aurora. The only reason I want to sell it is because I get more then what I paid for.  What is good about it is that it is 16 channels the burl is 2 channel, I also have an expensive mogami cable especially designed to fit the lynx and rme combo.  I know how I am, I always strive for perfection so I guess I will never be satisfed until I have the Burls, even though I know the Lynx is good.  Besides that the Burls looks really good also, would look good in my studios with those meters...etc..but I would buy it for the sound and I would know for sure this is the best sound I can get.  From all people using burl equipment they have hold said the same that it made their job so much easier made it so much easier to make the mix sound good and all...that is what I strive for..I am redy to pay for all shortcuts I can do make my music recoding as painless as possible, I rather pay the price then to spend endless painful hours on doing it "the hard way" I just want the best possible sound directly with help of outboard gear, which help give that extrac analogue magic and sparkle to makes it feel more alive with detailed harmonics etc.

--------

Lastly one other bit of factual nonsense...

3-Way monitors are a very poor choice for monitoring unless your room is big enough to have the throw where they can do their job, so telling others that everyone knows 3-ways are the best, is inaccurate if their rooms cannot accommodate them.

To be honest I was very surpsied you say that, 3-way monitors are superior, a 2 way speaker is not a good idea, it will just become one big mush compare to a 3-way monitor where everything will become a lot more clean and a lot better separation in the sound,
it is simply not a good idea to have all sound go through 2 elements..  All the best monitors today that I know if is 3 way. Focal, barefoot, trident, RL 901K.

However what I might add is that to get a 3 way monitor work properly it is a lot more demanding and harder thing to construct, so it is possible that there is a lot of 3 way monitors out there with less successful construction... But the best high end monitors are 3 way, and for a good reason, I have really no idea how you could deny such thing,  the benefits is obvious.




« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:23:32 PM by Immersion »

ffcal

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »
Immersion said:

"There is a lot of talk about 10 years of experience, and 15 years of experience it is really  not anything that is revelation to the discussion there is a lot of artists that have life long careers, as a musician and producer is a lot about your taste and sense of audio , some one have it some have not.  Of course I understand you did might not say it directely but indirectly, the whole general attitude seemed to be that you could get away with bad equipment with the right skills.. I told many times this correct but to a certain level, to beyond a certain thresold you really need more then good skills you also need good tools and equipments."

Seems like you haven't been reading with others have been saying.  As Mike and others have said already, no-one is advocating the use of "bad" equipment with the "right" skills.  You seem to be getting lost in the details and are not attuned to what some of the more experienced musicians are trying to say to you.  One of things I have learned through the years is that you will learn more if you approach your craft with more humility and appreciate that will always be much that you don't know and possibly will never know.  The alternative is to resonate within your own echo chamber, but I suspect that that is not the result you're seeking.

Good luck.

Forrest
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:45:10 PM by ffcal »

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2013, 04:06:59 PM »
Immersion said:

You seem to be getting lost in the details and are not attuned to what some of the more experienced musicians are trying to say to you. 

I think if some one said that to you you would consider such statements proactive.
I wish we could have a coequal discussion, where all people are equally worth, and not people riding on high horses saying things like "I have better experience then you"  it really kills the discussion, and is not really constructive and right.

I said that the years of experience is of no relevance, some people have it in them some have not, so to make this into some kind of competition who has released most albums and how have been working with certain audio in certai amount of years I find really provocative and arrogant.  People use it as their main argument that they have certain years of experience so for that reason everything they say is above others,  there is so many artists out there who have been working all life so years of experience say really zero to be honest.  Some one achieve the same results in 1 year then the other person achieve in 30 years in terms of sound quality  and production.


ffcal

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »
Immersion said:

You seem to be getting lost in the details and are not attuned to what some of the more experienced musicians are trying to say to you. 

I think if some one said that to you you would consider such statements proactive.
I wish we could have a coequal discussion, where all people are equally worth, and not people riding on high horses saying things like "I have better experience then you"  it really kills the discussion, and is not really constructive and right.

I said that the years of experience is of no relevance, some people have it in them some have not, so to make this into some kind of competition who has released most albums and how have been working with certain audio in certai amount of years I find really provocative and arrogant.  People use it as their main argument that they have certain years of experience so for that reason everything they say is above others,  there is so many artists out there who have been working all life so years of experience say really zero to be honest.  Some one achieve the same results in 1 year then the other person achieve in 30 years in terms of sound quality  and production.

I think the people responding to your thread have for the most part been very restrained and I think most of the fire has been coming from your direction.  I certainly haven't been talking down to you and tried to give you constructive feedback on a piece you posted to the forum.  The only biting comments seem to be coming from people who seem frustrated by the generalizations in your responses.  Did you ever consider that maybe in your defensiveness you're overcompensating for insecurities about your own inexperience?  The best defense is not always an offense.

One other nontechnical word of advice--getting some musical training in performing or music theory, if you don't have some already, will benefit you in the long run.

Finally, while I know you're trying, some of your sentences do not flow well grammatically and at times it can difficult to understand what you're saying.

Forrest
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 04:29:17 PM by ffcal »

Ekstasis

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2013, 04:36:03 PM »
Immersion said:

You seem to be getting lost in the details and are not attuned to what some of the more experienced musicians are trying to say to you. 

I think if some one said that to you you would consider such statements proactive.
I wish we could have a coequal discussion, where all people are equally worth, and not people riding on high horses saying things like "I have better experience then you"  it really kills the discussion, and is not really constructive and right.

I said that the years of experience is of no relevance, some people have it in them some have not, so to make this into some kind of competition who has released most albums and how have been working with certain audio in certai amount of years I find really provocative and arrogant.  People use it as their main argument that they have certain years of experience so for that reason everything they say is above others,  there is so many artists out there who have been working all life so years of experience say really zero to be honest.  Some one achieve the same results in 1 year then the other person achieve in 30 years in terms of sound quality  and production.

I think the people responding to your thread have for the most part been very restrained and I think most of the fire has been coming from your direction.  I certainly haven't been talking down to you and tried to give you constructive feedback on a piece you posted to the forum.  The only biting comments seem to be coming from people who seem frustrated by the generalizations in your responses.  Did you ever consider that maybe in your defensiveness you're overcompensating for insecurities about your own inexperience?  The best defense is not always an offense.

One other nontechnical word of advice--getting some musical training in performing or music theory, if you don't have some already, will benefit you in the long run.

Forrest

I have been restrained too, thank you, I am not the person who come with personal attacks, or sit on a high horse saying that I have more years of experience then you, etc etc,  I think that is not a way to defend your argument.
It is just a short lazy answer to win the argument. It is a well common strategy by people .

I admit I have things to learn, and probably you too, but I am not new to this I have many years of experience even though I have not released a album I have been recording a lot at home.  But years of experience argument etc..is just arrogant instead of keeping the discussion ot the actual content.

I understand that most people on this forum is one big family, mostly are arists who probably have met each other in real life, or been friends for long or are related to the Hypnos label, I understand the need for you all to "group" together and protect each other,  and you all are defending each other and totally represses anything you does not agree with cause you are all "friends" and you do not want to criticize each other as it seem. I am just a lone guy from Sweden, with absolutely no relation to any one in this forum, that is maybe why I dare to question people on this forum without out risking to create certain "tension" between private or professional relations.

That two way monitors is better then 3 way is a highly controversial statement for instance, but since you all are friends in here I doubt any one would dare to even consider to claim otherwise.



ffcal

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Re: Digital to analog converters
« Reply #119 on: November 27, 2013, 04:47:17 PM »
I think people who have disagreed with you in this thread have said quite a bit more to you than "I have more experience," but you seem not to process what they're saying or just dismiss it out of hand.  Maybe you should re-read some of the responses, especially Paul's detailed ones.  There's no secret society here, but if I were you I wouldn't be too proud about being a contrarian for contrariness' sake.  And no, your tone throughout this thread has been offensive.  If you're seeking some help, you're going about it the wrong way.

Forrest

« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 04:59:53 PM by ffcal »