Author Topic: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list  (Read 4349 times)

Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2013, 09:30:02 AM »
I should walk back my own comment a little. There are plenty of knowledgeable, cool and enthusiastic people there. The problem is the few people who are so superior and condescending in every post. It makes my teeth hurt.


The problem is when people from companies with a secret agenda post 
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/705748-lynx-hilo-now-available.html

The guy from Lynx is posting slamming all other companies, he claim of course that Hilo has superior jitter performance.
I have been talking with Antelope about it they say they are thinking about reporting him..he have posted a lot of threads and documents which is just plain lies just to hurt companies and to sell more lynx products.. guys like him really destroy the forum... there is false information on there so you must take everything with a grain of salt all the time.

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2013, 09:34:33 AM »
I've seen the same thing in audiophile forums and message groups. Many of the participants have a product or service, and all their posts end up being promotional boosts to their own product, and negative tear-downs of all the competitors' offerings.

Yet another reason to avoid audiophile forums!
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Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2013, 09:37:52 AM »
I've seen the same thing in audiophile forums and message groups. Many of the participants have a product or service, and all their posts end up being promotional boosts to their own product, and negative tear-downs of all the competitors' offerings.

Yet another reason to avoid audiophile forums!

Yeah..it is quite sad when people like that destroys forums... makes it impossible to trust anyone when their is people there with commercial interests.. . well it is at least good when they are open and tell the people who they are working for... but I know not all people do.

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2013, 11:38:55 AM »
God damn, I hate gearslutz. What a bunch of douchebags.

Its a crazy place. The only advice and tid-bits I ever pick up from there any more are practical, I almost never go there for gear recommendations or advice as there is always someone with an ax to grind or an agenda. Not everyone, but man its getting harder and harder to wade through the muck.

Back on track here, I met most of the Antelope guys at AES and got a run through of their gear, they make some sick stuff. They make a clock thats like $7-8k...for a master clock, and it looks like a piece of artwork to boot.

Also dollar for dollar their new Orion 32 is just amazing for how many channels of conversion you get for the price.

Oh and Mike, don't get me going on the audiophile forums...I have just started getting into Hi-Rez downloads and the guys at most of the audiophile forums are nuts!!! Its definitly a game for the rich to play.

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Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2013, 12:00:02 PM »
God damn, I hate gearslutz. What a bunch of douchebags.

Its a crazy place. The only advice and tid-bits I ever pick up from there any more are practical, I almost never go there for gear recommendations or advice as there is always someone with an ax to grind or an agenda. Not everyone, but man its getting harder and harder to wade through the muck.

Back on track here, I met most of the Antelope guys at AES and got a run through of their gear, they make some sick stuff. They make a clock thats like $7-8k...for a master clock, and it looks like a piece of artwork to boot.

Also dollar for dollar their new Orion 32 is just amazing for how many channels of conversion you get for the price.

Oh and Mike, don't get me going on the audiophile forums...I have just started getting into Hi-Rez downloads and the guys at most of the audiophile forums are nuts!!! Its definitly a game for the rich to play.

Yes I am aware of the Orion 32, I would say, it has a really good value depending on your needs.
If you want a monitor controller in your studio, Orion 32 might not be for you...especially if you want a relay based,  I would had consider it if I had a RME HDSPe  MADI FX card, in fact when I did start build my studio the Orion was just released, not many tests, but now it seem the convert tests show extremely good results they are now rated among their best. 

If it wasn't for the black friday deal I would never have bought the Eclipse that is for sure..more possible the orion 32 and a RME HDSPe MADI FX card...  But the good things since I got my Eclipse for such a good price I can sell it with very small loss...cause I know the market value...

But since I have invested a lot of money in both AES cables and a RME HDSPe AES card I did deiced to go with AES. AES is more used anyway...  but I guess...unfortunately it will be maybe less and less common I hope not.. cause in studio you can have both very new and very old gear... good things with AES is that it works on both new and legacy products...so it is more universal. and soundwise the right cables it is very good.

USB and thunderbolt solve the jitter problem but it does introduce latency problems instead and also increased CPU cycles.
 
Before I die I want to atleast try the Atomic antelope clock mixed with the trinity clock you should have both for a complete system.. but I guess until then they have probably released new clock...

EDIT: The black friday offer ends today, so be fast.

Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 12:28:49 PM »
This video is such a classic the guys reaction when testing the new Trinity clock.

Carlos Castro - Part 2

mgriffin

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 01:54:37 PM »
I just got sucked into reading a few threads on Gearslutz. Wow, it's really amazing the lengths people will go to, trying to convince themselves that a certain piece of gear sounds better. 

Every time someone does a blind listening test, it proves 90% of the preferences people have expressed are wishful thinking, and still, many people are willing (glad, even) to spend large amounts of money on equipment that can't possibly make any audible difference in their work.
 
That's why I sold my Cranesong HEDD. Yes, it made an "audible difference," but when I was honest with myself, the difference was not worth $3600 or whatever it was I spent on the thing... not even close.
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APK

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2013, 02:02:43 PM »
The old law of diminishing returns.
That last 5% costs you 1,000% more.
And yet for most of the music people are recording it makes no significant difference at all.
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Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2013, 02:05:36 PM »
I just got sucked into reading a few threads on Gearslutz. Wow, it's really amazing the lengths people will go to, trying to convince themselves that a certain piece of gear sounds better. 

Every time someone does a blind listening test, it proves 90% of the preferences people have expressed are wishful thinking, and still, many people are willing (glad, even) to spend large amounts of money on equipment that can't possibly make any audible difference in their work.
 
That's why I sold my Cranesong HEDD. Yes, it made an "audible difference," but when I was honest with myself, the difference was not worth $3600 or whatever it was I spent on the thing... not even close.

Well the problem is we are biological beings, if we where digital beings I think it would be easier for us..cause then our subjective experience would be more consistent, it is just too many factors that vary now...

regarding hedd, are you just talking about the converter ?
I think people do not buy it for that in first hand but for the processing...the processing elements are not so subtle..they are quite big. atleast from the samples I have heard.but to be honest I have not heard it in person...I might have the same experience as you, but as many of these tools the difference are in the metaphysical level, depends on how much focus you pay on the "small dots" where all dots represent a detail.


mgriffin

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2013, 02:10:48 PM »
The old law of diminishing returns.
That last 5% costs you 1,000% more.
And yet for most of the music people are recording it makes no significant difference at all.


Totally agreed. I have no problem with people paying for specialized or luxury goods that make them happy -- in that sense, they are "worth it" to them, even if we don't understand the value.

Where I have a problem is with gear that makes no audible difference, as proven in blind listening tests, when people argue even subsequent to this proof that the gear is better anyway. If it's better, it should at least be discernible in blind testing. Even if it IS discernible in blind testing, there's the question of whether the difference is worth the price.
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mgriffin

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2013, 02:23:54 PM »
Well the problem is we are biological beings, if we where digital beings I think it would be easier for us..cause then our subjective experience would be more consistent, it is just too many factors that vary now...


That's just it -- we are biological, and emotional. Our expectations and desires exert more powerful influence over our perceptions than we realize.

When I was in college, several of my friends got together to do a large and very extensive blind tasting of beer. We tried something like 20 beers, all unidentified at the time of tasting, and rated them. All my friends and I considered ourselves beer-drinking enthusiasts, and though we were relatively impoverished like all college students, we had tried many kinds of beer before, and had strong biases and preferences

There were a few examples of beer with very distinctive taste or smell or appearance, which people were able to guess. Generally though, we were all completely shocked at the number of premium or import beers which were rated very low, and the number of cheaper or no-name beers which rated very high. It was really eye-opening. In many cases, some of us rated beers that we THOUGHT we liked, very near the bottom.

This was when the microbrew and craft brewing phenomenon was just getting started, so the most premium beer you could buy in a bottle at that time was Sam Adams (and of course our test didn't involve draft beers, since it was conducted at my friend's house). For example St. Pauli Girl and Rolling Rock were both considered very premium beers at this time, and were rated among the lowest of all beers.

Blitz, which was the low-budget version of Henry Weinhard's, and Bohemian which was a borderline generic beer (not the expensive import of the same name) both rated very highly by everyone.

This was a really eye-opening experience for me, and all my friends too.  There was no denying the fact that our preferences were based much less on taste, and more on brand perception, label, and other factors.

I believe the same is true of blind listening tests. Certainly different pieces of gear can have different sound. But very much of what we BELIEVE sounds different from one to the next is either no difference at all, or a difference so small that it can hardly be said to be worth paying for.

This isn't because people are assholes or dishonest or snobs (well, maybe a little bit of snobbery), but because of what I said above -- our expectations and desires exert more powerful influence over our perceptions than we realize.




Quote
regarding hedd, are you just talking about the converter ?
I think people do not buy it for that in first hand but for the processing...the processing elements are not so subtle..they are quite big. atleast from the samples I have heard.but to be honest I have not heard it in person...I might have the same experience as you, but as many of these tools the difference are in the metaphysical level, depends on how much focus you pay on the "small dots" where all dots represent a detail.

Again, I'm not saying the HEDD didn't sound different. Well, as a pure AD/DA without the harmonic effects stuff, I can't claim that I ever heard any improvement. The harmonic effects were noticeable, certainly. I never meant to argue that the HEDD 192 wasn't capable of coloring or shifting the sound. It was very subtle, though, and in the end, I was able to create more of a difference by running the signal through a piece of tube gear or applying a tiny bit of EQ.

There was a difference, but was it a $3,600 difference? Not for me. You can be all kinds of plugins that do similar things, and for my purposes, some of them are just as useful when it came down to actual sound -- not just expectations based on expense and exoticism.

[ Mike Griffin, Hypnos Recordings ] email mg (at) hypnos.com | http://hypnos.com | http://twitter.com/mgsoundvisions

Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2013, 02:24:58 PM »
The old law of diminishing returns.
That last 5% costs you 1,000% more.
And yet for most of the music people are recording it makes no significant difference at all.


Totally agreed. I have no problem with people paying for specialized or luxury goods that make them happy -- in that sense, they are "worth it" to them, even if we don't understand the value.

Where I have a problem is with gear that makes no audible difference, as proven in blind listening tests, when people argue even subsequent to this proof that the gear is better anyway. If it's better, it should at least be discernible in blind testing. Even if it IS discernible in blind testing, there's the question of whether the difference is worth the price.

Even with blind tests there are still so many factors.. will the rest of the system you use be able to make the change audible ?
Also depends how the test is done sounds you feed the test. I have heard so many blind tests, and most of the time they feed it with totally wrong type of sounds or music.  Me personally I find it easier to hear the difference with more sustaining sounds it makes it easier to hear how it evolve with the time, reverbed with a bed of transients which makes it a lot details more auideable, and most important of all fill the whole frequency spectrum,  in most case juts some standard jazz or pop production, I Think that does not always do the job..I rather feed it with more extreme sound with a lot of details, I Would prefer just ambient sounds actually but that is intelligent made that you can uncover all details and flaws.

So to summon, blind tests are good when they are done. In many cases blind tests are just done to prove that for instance cheaper alternative sound as good as the expensive alternative, with the right kind of source audio it is probably possible.

I think both blind tests and theoretical testes i needed.  Your ear can be easily fooled, for instance the human ear tend often to prefer a colored sound it can give a sense that it sounds better.


Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2013, 02:32:19 PM »
[

I believe the same is true of blind listening tests. Certainly different pieces of gear can have different sound. But very much of what we BELIEVE sounds different from one to the next is either no difference at all, or a difference so small that it can hardly be said to be worth paying for.

This isn't because people are assholes or dishonest or snobs (well, maybe a little bit of snobbery), but because of what I said above -- our expectations and desires exert more powerful influence over our perceptions than we realize.




Quote
regarding hedd, are you just talking about the converter ?
I think people do not buy it for that in first hand but for the processing...the processing elements are not so subtle..they are quite big. atleast from the samples I have heard.but to be honest I have not heard it in person...I might have the same experience as you, but as many of these tools the difference are in the metaphysical level, depends on how much focus you pay on the "small dots" where all dots represent a detail.

Again, I'm not saying the HEDD didn't sound different. Well, as a pure AD/DA without the harmonic effects stuff, I can't claim that I ever heard any improvement. The harmonic effects were noticeable, certainly. I never meant to argue that the HEDD 192 wasn't capable of coloring or shifting the sound. It was very subtle, though, and in the end, I was able to create more of a difference by running the signal through a piece of tube gear or applying a tiny bit of EQ.

There was a difference, but was it a $3,600 difference? Not for me. You can be all kinds of plugins that do similar things, and for my purposes, some of them are just as useful when it came down to actual sound -- not just expectations based on expense and exoticism.

The placebo effect is unfortunately a reality yes, but it really depends on what we are talking about,  for me I have no problem with coloring at all, despite the most critial part in the chain the DAC or monitor controller, if you are not able to feed a 100% trustworthy signal to your speakers you are doomed.

Regarding HEDD, well it is mastering tool, so it must be true to it's source so there is a certain limit on how much harmonic distortion that can be added I guess.. it is there to enhance not distort too much.

 

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2013, 09:02:24 PM »
As a reviewer and tech consultant  I constantly have to do side by side comparisons and tests, and the reality is most of the time you are right Mike. The differences fall into the 10-15% category that most folks really would not care about. Now I am talking class vs class most of the time as its unfair to compare an old soundblaster card to an Orion 32 or whatever. I have heard the Orion 32, Apogee Symphony 64, Aurora, UA 2192, Lavry Gold, Pacifics Microsonics and a few others and its all really a 10% - 15% sonic difference. I could happily record with any of them and never look back.

Since this thread centers around plug-ins...or did. I have done real world side by side comparisons of most of Universal Audio's wares and they come scarily close to the real thing and the differences is really just the anomalies of air, noise and harmonic distortion present in the hardware that give that slight edge. In other words high end plug-in modeling is getting scary good.

Having said that when possible I will always choose the hardware to work with as I do find the effects of high end, analog gear to be cumulative, IE one high end piece will not make a ton of difference and save your butt so to speak, but a good collection of the right high end pieces can, but really high-end or low-end. It all about having the right collection of pieces that give you the results you want, and secondly get you the results you want when others hear your work.

In all my years of recording the 2 most significant times when my ears perked up and I went ahhhh, I hear it! I get it! were:

1. when I treated my room and put my monitors on Prime acoustics recoil stabilizers
2. When I ran sound through a real hardware La-2a

PV
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2013, 05:17:14 AM »

In all my years of recording the 2 most significant times when my ears perked up and I went ahhhh, I hear it! I get it! were:

1. when I treated my room and put my monitors on Prime acoustics recoil stabilizers
2. When I ran sound through a real hardware La-2a

PV

I had been wondering about the Prime Acoustic Stabilizers, seen them everywhere and heard good thing but from no one I knew and who's point of view I respect.  Treating ones studio is really the best thing you can do for your sound.  It requires little effort unless you choose to make your own panels, minimum knowledge, because the "where to place the panels" info is all over the web and it does not have to be a big investment. 

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2013, 11:04:32 AM »
The recoils are awesome. I was initially skeptical thinking it would be like most audiophile snake oil products...but the difference was immediate in terms of bass response and balance.

Although I have not heard them the IsoAcoustics stands seam to be really great too. I have 3 or friends using them.

Paul
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Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2013, 11:44:32 AM »
Thanks for the link Paul.

Ekstasis

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Re: KVR Black friday/cyber monday sales list
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2013, 01:39:35 PM »
The recoils are awesome. I was initially skeptical thinking it would be like most audiophile snake oil products...but the difference was immediate in terms of bass response and balance.

Although I have not heard them the IsoAcoustics stands seam to be really great too. I have 3 or friends using them.

Paul

Well it is no secret really that monitor stands can have a big impact... That is why I did buy my Towersonic Monitor stands.

I was also recommended the isoacoustics at first, but to me their construction did not feel rigid enough but I guess it is... maybe my HG3 monitors are too big for them I do not know... They have a good value, but I do not think they are beautiful...