Author Topic: Ambient Music + Copyright  (Read 1938 times)

APK

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 03:38:46 PM »
Labour, in english, simply means work, it means you put time into it. It doesn't mean "work I'd rather not do".

Yes, I run a label. But I run it primarily to release my own music. No reason to assume that all label owners are "in it for the money" (or some similar silly slogan). Besides, to correct yet another generalization of yours, even lawyers can be primarily interested in the truth, not simply in being paid.

 And there is no reason why art should only be done for "your personal pleasure". That is just another bias of yours. Many artists, now and through history, worked on art for a living. So for you it may just be a hobby, but for many other people it is definitely a profession.
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Ekstasis

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 03:42:23 PM »
Labour, in english, simply means work, it means you put time into it. It doesn't mean "work I'd rather not do".

Yes, I run a label. But I run it primarily to release my own music. No reason to assume that all label owners are "in it for the money" (or some similar silly slogan). Besides, to correct yet another generalization of yours, even lawyers can be primarily interested in the truth, not simply in being paid.

 And there is no reason why art should only be done for "your personal pleasure". That is just another bias of yours. Many artists, now and through history, worked on art for a living. So for you it may just be a hobby, but for many other people it is definitely a profession.

Music should be a passion not a labour..if you do it for money you could aswell be a prostitute and sell yourself.. but nevermind..
You mix up things, of course to be able to surrive on the music is an good bonus but it should not be the driving force and the purpose you release new albums just to bring in some more cash. I think we end it there, you have a more consertive view then me, I am fine with that even though we do not agree.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 03:44:38 PM by Immersion »

El culto

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 03:46:35 PM »
With all the billions of choices modern synths offer, can't understand why an em/ambient artist would need to sampleand then change someone else's work.  Laziness, yes.  Stealing, yes.

I vote for artistic freedom!



it seems that artistic freedom works for you in the same way as for "music freedom"

Concerning to your post in the "Best of 2013" and "el culto news" thread, believe me I know very well each legal customer of "Dagaz" because this ltd CD is exclusively released via el culto.

Greetings,
Tomas
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 12:51:10 PM by jkn »

Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2014, 03:55:26 PM »
Wether music or art is a labour or a passion should be ENTIRELY at the discresion of the artist. Meaning they have the right to give away or sell their work as they see fit.

It is not the right of lazy entitled wanna be's to take that art and claim it as thier own.

Otherwise if I want to live in your house because its nicer than mine, well then hey I am moving in.
Does not matter if I earned it, own it or not. I want it so it should be!

This noble cause of the poor artist making art by any means necessary because they are a poor artist is pure bull ....
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

mgriffin

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2014, 03:56:42 PM »
Music should be a passion not a labour..if you do it for money you could aswell be a prostitute and sell yourself..

If this is your personal opinion, then you are free to make music or art and give it away for free. That does not mean that other people should not be able to charge something for their work. It certainly does not mean they are equivalent to prostitutes for doing so!

Nobody creates music JUST for the money, or JUST for the art with no regard for money. I mean, even people who don't make a penny for their work probably would accept payment if someone made them the right offer. Many of those who argue most vocally against copyright are people who make plenty of money for their work. They just believe they can make money while still letting people share it freely.

The very great majority of the music you listen to, very nearly 100% of it, simply would not exist if there were not a system of artist's rights that allowed the artist to be compensated for their work. Think of all the albums that required a lot of expense to create. Nobody would have paid the bill to create these things, except that a system existed whereby they might recoup their investment and possibly profit.

Would this be a better world if there were no Dark Side of the Moon, or no White Album, or no Exile on Main Street? Seriously?! If you argue that these things would exist without copyright, you have absolutely no credibility.
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Ekstasis

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 03:56:54 PM »
With all the billions of choices modern synths offer, can't understand why an em/ambient artist would need to sampleand then change someone else's work.  Laziness, yes.  Stealing, yes.




I vote for artistic freedom!


Niclas,

it seems that artistic freedom works for you in the same way as for "music freedom"

Concerning to your post in the "Best of 2013" and "el culto news" thread, believe me I know very well each legal customer of "Dagaz" because this ltd CD is exclusively released via el culto.

Greetings,
Tomas


Maybe I heard it on a internet radio ? I am a high believer in "try before by"   Should I buy something just judging on the art work and cool song titles ?  I have a very big cd collection I Do not have time to fill my small apartment with cds that  do not deserve a long term spot.. I have been burned so many times.
Any thing it is the wrong approach to make you get more customers.

APK

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 03:57:06 PM »
Labour, in english, simply means work, it means you put time into it. It doesn't mean "work I'd rather not do".

Yes, I run a label. But I run it primarily to release my own music. No reason to assume that all label owners are "in it for the money" (or some similar silly slogan). Besides, to correct yet another generalization of yours, even lawyers can be primarily interested in the truth, not simply in being paid.

 And there is no reason why art should only be done for "your personal pleasure". That is just another bias of yours. Many artists, now and through history, worked on art for a living. So for you it may just be a hobby, but for many other people it is definitely a profession.

Music should be a passion not a labour..if you do it for money you could aswell be a prostitute and sell yourself.. but nevermind..
You mix up things, of course to be able to surrive on the music is an good bonus but it should not be the driving force and the purpose you release new albums just to bring in some more cash. I think we end it there, you have a more consertive view then me, I am fine with that even though we do not agree.

The worst thing about you Immersion is that you make stupid and totally ignorant statements like "the driving force and the purpose you release new albums just to bring in some more cash". That is one of the most offensive things I have ever heard anyone say against me. But I doubt you can understand that in your self-serving universe.
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El culto

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 04:07:17 PM »
With all the billions of choices modern synths offer, can't understand why an em/ambient artist would need to sampleand then change someone else's work.  Laziness, yes.  Stealing, yes.




I vote for artistic freedom!


Niclas,

it seems that artistic freedom works for you in the same way as for "music freedom"

Concerning to your post in the "Best of 2013" and "el culto news" thread, believe me I know very well each legal customer of "Dagaz" because this ltd CD is exclusively released via el culto.

Greetings,
Tomas


Maybe I heard it on a internet radio ? I am a high believer in "try before by"   Should I buy something just judging on the art work and cool song titles ?  I have a very big cd collection I Do not have time to fill my small apartment with cds that  do not deserve a long term spot.. I have been burned so many times.
Any thing it is the wrong approach to make you get more customers.


Niclas.

internet radio…ahhhh i see...and that of course makes it into the "Best of 2013" list ;D

BTW: The world may be a plate too!

Greetings,
Tomas

Ekstasis

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 04:11:46 PM »
there is censorship on the forum, I have now tried to write the same post two times, it did contain no personal attack or anything it did not contain some thing like "you are stupid" or anythning, just that expressed that I was tired of "some ones" conservative opinions.  I try to not be rude, I do not call any one stupid cause of a conflicting opinion please keep it on a civil level at least. 

mgriffin

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 04:12:45 PM »
Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.
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El culto

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2014, 04:18:38 PM »
Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1

APK

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2014, 04:19:34 PM »
Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1
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mgriffin

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2014, 04:58:05 PM »
Note to all: Immersion has been banned temporarily.

The forum moderators and I will review the term of the ban, if Immersion eventually wants to come back. We need a period of cooling off, at least. For now, I hope for a return to civility and mutual respect, even where disagreement exists.
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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2014, 05:08:43 PM »
I should add, because I do believe in rules and fairness -- even if this forum more semi-private community than an open public square -- that the banning was for reason of provocation and disruption. Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is trolling (intentionally trying to upset people) or just has controversial opinions and an "in your face" way of expressing them.

Either way, if the result is that everyone you communicate with ends up angry, upset or insulted, it's time for a break. Immersion had been warned more than once to cool it. Usually if someone stops short of outright insults, they'll be able to stick around. At some point, though, even if insulting words aren't used, the provocation is too much, and the community ends up disrupted. People end up staying away, or sending complaints. I try to make this forum a place where anyone can participate, but there are limits to how much disruption one member can cause.
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Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2014, 06:13:46 PM »
With all the billions of choices modern synths offer, can't understand why an em/ambient artist would need to sampleand then change someone else's work.  Laziness, yes.  Stealing, yes.

My sentiments exactly......I might cut film score work some slack.  Sampled Orchestral work etc....Real Orchestra's are expensive

Nothing against sample based technology and I have respect for those here that create sample libraries.

Personally all the fun, joy and creative satisfaction is in the synthesis journey.....for me that means starting at the actual source

 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 06:23:59 PM by Julio Di Benedetto »

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2014, 08:06:39 PM »
Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1

drone on

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 11:39:55 PM »
Yes immersions OPINIONS may have upset people, but I didn't notice him personally attacking anyone.  When you start using the word "stupid" as was used against him, it just shows your immaturity and THAT kind of post should be banned.  I don't agree with immersion's opinion but just because the majority disagree with him does not justify a ban.  If someone here says something you don't like it's your choice to respond or ignore.  Keep arguing about it for two pages and people are going to get more upset.  Hope I don't get banned for saying this.  ;)

Seren

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2014, 01:39:54 AM »
I'm sorry to hear of anyone being banned - and I have often wondered what immersion's first language is due to the use of 'opinion communicated in the form of fact' and his misunderstanding of people's efforts to communicate more subtle approaches - a sense of ships slipping past each other in the night with increasing levels of frustration and uncomprehension. I nearly asked this on one occasion but chose not to in case it caused offense.

I have felt my own frustration in the communications - and found myself having to 'hold my tongue' in some of the interactions as I did (perhaps more a sign of my own emotional insecurity) find the thrust of 'I think you are all idiots (conservative/prostitute etc), lets just agree to disagree - insensitive and I can understand how people became upset.

Immersion did not seem to understand, even when it was carefully explained (in numerous of the threads) that his way of communicating was the problem not necessarily his opinions. It pushed people into making defensive responses rather than exploring subjects together - which was also clearly pointed out by numerous people before any defensive statements were made by anyone.

All of which was a pity as it distracted from the interesting elements of the discussions and any valid points that may have been included in his posts.

It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes.

Perhaps the strangest thing is that Immersion has been a member of the forum since 2008 and I certainly don't recall any issues like the recent ones until, well, recently......

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2014, 06:47:55 AM »
I'm sorry to hear of anyone being banned - and I have often wondered what immersion's first language is due to the use of 'opinion communicated in the form of fact' and his misunderstanding of people's efforts to communicate more subtle approaches - a sense of ships slipping past each other in the night with increasing levels of frustration and uncomprehension. I nearly asked this on one occasion but chose not to in case it caused offense.

I have felt my own frustration in the communications - and found myself having to 'hold my tongue' in some of the interactions as I did (perhaps more a sign of my own emotional insecurity) find the thrust of 'I think you are all idiots (conservative/prostitute etc), lets just agree to disagree - insensitive and I can understand how people became upset.

Immersion did not seem to understand, even when it was carefully explained (in numerous of the threads) that his way of communicating was the problem not necessarily his opinions. It pushed people into making defensive responses rather than exploring subjects together - which was also clearly pointed out by numerous people before any defensive statements were made by anyone.

All of which was a pity as it distracted from the interesting elements of the discussions and any valid points that may have been included in his posts.

It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes.

Perhaps the strangest thing is that Immersion has been a member of the forum since 2008 and I certainly don't recall any issues like the recent ones until, well, recently......

Up to a certain level I do agree with that. But this was going which each step further…i mean meanwhile he was clearly stating about the "try before buy" - what would be the next? Maybe posting links to illegal content?

Anyone can have his opinion but this "artistic freedom" he want to excuse here (with his personal views) when something is stolen, isn´t really a good "value" for this forum, which include a lot artists + labels and also I consider as the most serious board for Ambient music.

Greetings,
Tomas

APK

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Re: Ambient Music + Copyright
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2014, 06:51:51 AM »
As Seren said: "It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes."

Yep. All already true I believe.

Curiously immune to other people's views, and blithely unaware that this is a forum run by a record label.

I think we should probably end this thread and move on.
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