Ambient Music + Copyright

[El culto]

Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1

[APK]

Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1

[mgriffin]

Note to all: Immersion has been banned temporarily.

The forum moderators and I will review the term of the ban, if Immersion eventually wants to come back. We need a period of cooling off, at least. For now, I hope for a return to civility and mutual respect, even where disagreement exists.

[mgriffin]

I should add, because I do believe in rules and fairness -- even if this forum more semi-private community than an open public square -- that the banning was for reason of provocation and disruption. Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is trolling (intentionally trying to upset people) or just has controversial opinions and an "in your face" way of expressing them.

Either way, if the result is that everyone you communicate with ends up angry, upset or insulted, it's time for a break. Immersion had been warned more than once to cool it. Usually if someone stops short of outright insults, they'll be able to stick around. At some point, though, even if insulting words aren't used, the provocation is too much, and the community ends up disrupted. People end up staying away, or sending complaints. I try to make this forum a place where anyone can participate, but there are limits to how much disruption one member can cause.

[Julio Di Benedetto]

With all the billions of choices modern synths offer, can't understand why an em/ambient artist would need to sampleand then change someone else's work.  Laziness, yes.  Stealing, yes.

My sentiments exactly......I might cut film score work some slack.  Sampled Orchestral work etc....Real Orchestra's are expensive

Nothing against sample based technology and I have respect for those here that create sample libraries.

Personally all the fun, joy and creative satisfaction is in the synthesis journey.....for me that means starting at the actual source

 

[Castleview]

Immersion, you show up on a forum where many of the members are ambient artists or record label owners, or both. You know most of them believe they should have the right to control their own work, to charge for it if they want, and to assert the right to control how other people use it.

If you want to disregard the rights all creative artists, at least be respectful enough not to rudely announce, "I don't respect your rights. Even if you don't want me to take your music, I will take it if I want to." To do otherwise is just being a jerk.

It's like showing up in a room full of married men and saying, "I dispute your right to protect your wives' bodies, and also dispute the right of your wives to control their own bodies, and I will touch them if I want. You can't stop me, because I disagree with your conservative beliefs."

It's just not cool at all.

+1

[drone on]

Yes immersions OPINIONS may have upset people, but I didn't notice him personally attacking anyone.  When you start using the word "stupid" as was used against him, it just shows your immaturity and THAT kind of post should be banned.  I don't agree with immersion's opinion but just because the majority disagree with him does not justify a ban.  If someone here says something you don't like it's your choice to respond or ignore.  Keep arguing about it for two pages and people are going to get more upset.  Hope I don't get banned for saying this. 

[Seren]

I'm sorry to hear of anyone being banned - and I have often wondered what immersion's first language is due to the use of 'opinion communicated in the form of fact' and his misunderstanding of people's efforts to communicate more subtle approaches - a sense of ships slipping past each other in the night with increasing levels of frustration and uncomprehension. I nearly asked this on one occasion but chose not to in case it caused offense.

I have felt my own frustration in the communications - and found myself having to 'hold my tongue' in some of the interactions as I did (perhaps more a sign of my own emotional insecurity) find the thrust of 'I think you are all idiots (conservative/prostitute etc), lets just agree to disagree - insensitive and I can understand how people became upset.

Immersion did not seem to understand, even when it was carefully explained (in numerous of the threads) that his way of communicating was the problem not necessarily his opinions. It pushed people into making defensive responses rather than exploring subjects together - which was also clearly pointed out by numerous people before any defensive statements were made by anyone.

All of which was a pity as it distracted from the interesting elements of the discussions and any valid points that may have been included in his posts.

It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes.

Perhaps the strangest thing is that Immersion has been a member of the forum since 2008 and I certainly don't recall any issues like the recent ones until, well, recently......

[El culto]

I'm sorry to hear of anyone being banned - and I have often wondered what immersion's first language is due to the use of 'opinion communicated in the form of fact' and his misunderstanding of people's efforts to communicate more subtle approaches - a sense of ships slipping past each other in the night with increasing levels of frustration and uncomprehension. I nearly asked this on one occasion but chose not to in case it caused offense.

I have felt my own frustration in the communications - and found myself having to 'hold my tongue' in some of the interactions as I did (perhaps more a sign of my own emotional insecurity) find the thrust of 'I think you are all idiots (conservative/prostitute etc), lets just agree to disagree - insensitive and I can understand how people became upset.

Immersion did not seem to understand, even when it was carefully explained (in numerous of the threads) that his way of communicating was the problem not necessarily his opinions. It pushed people into making defensive responses rather than exploring subjects together - which was also clearly pointed out by numerous people before any defensive statements were made by anyone.

All of which was a pity as it distracted from the interesting elements of the discussions and any valid points that may have been included in his posts.

It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes.

Perhaps the strangest thing is that Immersion has been a member of the forum since 2008 and I certainly don't recall any issues like the recent ones until, well, recently......

Up to a certain level I do agree with that. But this was going which each step further…i mean meanwhile he was clearly stating about the "try before buy" - what would be the next? Maybe posting links to illegal content?

Anyone can have his opinion but this "artistic freedom" he want to excuse here (with his personal views) when something is stolen, isnīt really a good "value" for this forum, which include a lot artists + labels and also I consider as the most serious board for Ambient music.

Greetings,
Tomas

[APK]

As Seren said: "It is difficult to see how this could have been resolved differently as eventually the level of upset could have driven people away or caused people to avoid responding to Immersion's posts - neither of which are positive outcomes."

Yep. All already true I believe.

Curiously immune to other people's views, and blithely unaware that this is a forum run by a record label.

I think we should probably end this thread and move on.

[| broken harbour |]

I'm a bit late to this party...

I think this thread got sidetracked a bit, I think the original posts were more debating the fairness of the current copyright system. Regardless of what the laws are in whatever country you live in, I personally have no problem with someone sampling something if it's mangled beyond recognition.  Plenty of avante garde or drone artists do this, most of my Gramophone Transmissions album is sample-based, granted almost all of it from sources that are now copyright-free.  But the difference between stealing and sampling would be that, in my opinion, I made something new with it through heavy handed processing and careful layering.  Also, it's not like I can ask Claude Debussy if I can sample 2 seconds of one of his symphonies...

However, would I sample one of my contemporaries? No.  Especially without asking first.

Now if we were to debate the 'all music should be free' battle cry that Gen-Y'ers worldwide shout from their mothers basements... boy oh boy do I have a rant ready to be unleashed...

[mgriffin]

Since there have been many posts since my explanation, I'll just add a couple comments.

First, banning a member is never done lightly. This has been building for a while, and I have been receiving complaints for several months. In fact, when I was travelling for Thanksgiving, I had to spend several hours on my laptop trying to put out fires of angry forum members demanding I do something then. At least one well-regarded, long-term forum member said he wouldn't be back.

Second, Immersion was warned several times behind the scenes. One thing he did improve was cutting down the direct personal insults, at least in terms of removing specific WORDS that can be considered insults... such as "stupid" or "idiotic." Having said that, it's certainly possible to insult a person without using any such words. Telling a musician or record label owner that if they want to charge people for their music, they're not better than a prostitute, is such an example.

Third, we are all human beings here. If you taunt and provoke people all around you, and constantly inflame everyone so they're all upset, sooner or later you'll fire up the emotions and the anger in a person who has the power to delete your posts or ban you. Doing this after you've been warned multiple times to cool it is simply playing with fire, and much as I hate to see someone banned, in this case it's nobody's fault but the member who was banned.

Fourth, as a general rule in life -- not just on internet forums, but in relationships, in family, and workplaces, if you are a member of a large group of people who are all getting along, and nobody has a problem with anybody else, nobody fights or argues... then you enter the group and suddenly provoke fights and disputes with otherwise peaceful people... sorry, but the problem is YOU, not everybody else. Acting innocent and proclaiming "it's just my opinion" after the fact, that's disingenuous. 

[petekelly]

Good post Mike, filling in a bit more context to where things ended up.

A shame in a sense, considering his obvious interest in matters ambient and gear in particular. I should say though, that if I came onto a forum like this at a relatively early stage in my musical development, I would be much more willing to listen to other more established people's advice - not always, but more so than repeatedly stating my own opinions / observations in an overly autocratic manner.

Of course a forum is full of opinions, but some discussion should arise out of differing opinions - hopefully !

[mgriffin]

Good post Mike, filling in a bit more context to where things ended up.

A shame in a sense, considering his obvious interest in matters ambient and gear in particular

Yes - I think Immersion was given extra chances because he obviously did care about the music, and had a lot of technical knowledge, and participated in a lot of topics.

At a time when forums like this one are mostly dying off all over the internet (check the Lustmord.com forum or the 12k.com forum lately), active and enthusiastic members are valuable. Unfortunately that value can be offset (perhaps more than offset) by too vocally disrespecting the other hundreds of forum members, including moderators.

[Castleview]

Mike,

I think you did the right thing. This is a very peaceful forum that's more civil than a lot of message boards I've seen and you can't let one person drive people away. Immersion seriously needed to chill out and he just didn't do it. He banned himself. I didn't think much of his antics at first but he kept getting worse and worse.

[Seren]

Out of interest I started reading Immersions early posts - and even then there was the occasional request from others to relax a bit  - but nowehere near the level of recent events with the almost insistent nature of his posts.

I don't think immersion arrived and started aggravating people straight away - he has been posting for for 5 1/2 years - perhaps something elsewhere has changed, and not seeing the guy face to face we just don't know what it may be or if we can help in any way.

[mgriffin]

You arrived at an interesting time in Hypnos Forum history, Castleview!

I think I will close this topic, just so it doesn't end up becoming an unfair piling-on of a person who can't post their side of the story.

The last thing I will add (to everyone, not to you, Castleview) is this: Forums like this one are only as healthy and vital as the posting and discussion that happens within. If you're a lurker, why not try posting? If you sometimes reply to  other people's topics, why not try posting a new topic of your own?

I don't mind that the forum is "slower" lately than in the past -- that's inevitable with the shift in people's focus to social networks -- but I was a little surprised to see other forums either disappear, or have no new posts in several months.

Thanks, everybody who contributes to the Hypnos Forum.