Author Topic: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'  (Read 18480 times)

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2014, 06:42:27 PM »
Gentleman...its your tone and honestly you provoked Tomas's to the point response, As well as mine. You know it is so, so dont be so surprised. Your perspective has great value and is well worth discussing but if you come across as you just have then you will be held accountable by forum members who release wonderful ambient music and who do not take to other ambient musicians production skills being questioned especially when the music is so damn "low volume" it seems ridiculous to even question overly extended bass. 

You want to have a go at it...then do so with respect and everyone will listen!  Of course sitting around a table discussing this with a pint of beer and things would be so much better understood.

Love & Peace 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 06:49:09 PM by Julio Di Benedetto »
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Castleview

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2014, 07:03:54 PM »
Gentleman...its your tone and honestly you provoked Tomas's to the point response, As well as mine. You know it is so, so dont be so surprised. Your perspective has great value and is well worth discussing but if you come across as you just have then you will be held accountable by forum members who release wonderful ambient music and who do not take to other ambient musicians production skills being questioned especially when the music is so damn "low volume" it seems ridiculous to even question overly extended bass. 

You want to have a go at it...then do so with respect and everyone will listen!  Of course sitting around a table discussing this with a pint of beer and things would be so much better understood.

Love & Peace

I agree with you..I do not want to attack people it takes a lot of energy.. but when there is people like Thomas with intention to just attack people on a personal level I must respond with the same coins... I said what I wanted to say.. I hope we can continue to speak about the new steve roach album now.

Honestly, you're just better off letting it go than responding.
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chris23

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2014, 08:05:59 PM »
I think everyone missed the big point here: Julio offered to buy everyone a pint of beer.  ;)

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2014, 09:54:20 PM »
I think everyone missed the big point here: Julio offered to buy everyone a pint of beer.  ;)

Yep...first rounds on me.  ;D

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thirdsystem

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2014, 07:50:46 AM »
Sounds good, a nice chilled pint of amber nectar  :)

Life's too short for falling out about music, especially ambient which I thought was impossible.

I have not detected any negative bass issue with the music under discussion, will have to listen on my main hifi as I tend to listen through in my Office standmounters. The Tannoy floorstanders will be more revealing perhaps.

Good excuse to listen again today  :)

Horizon 1982

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2014, 08:06:38 AM »
all gear have their own musical language and color

I couldn't agree more.

I really enjoy the colors and musical language of the gear I purchased, with very few regrets so far...I  didn't liked 3 synths and traded them.

I don't need to justify myself for being a beginner even though I feel I have the right sensitivity (I just need to work more) but hey I just started to build my studio as a part time hobbie about one year and a half ago and I didn't finished yet. I don't want to pursue (at least for now) a musical career, I'm a successful artist in an another field.

But I'm open to a thread like: ''Share your first ambient track, and tells us how you got your first gear''.


My tools are sponsored by my own money making art and not by my parents or a third party... so I'm really proud. I will continue of course to study this, because I love ambient.

I have the right to say I don't like a detail of a track(s) I purchased of a known master, my skills doesn't really matter as a listener and ultimately as a customer.

Cheers








« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 09:17:25 AM by Crossing_The_Threshold »

petekelly

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2014, 01:11:50 PM »
'Ekstasis' said:
Quote
if it is any genre that gear MATTER it is ambient, since all it is about is ear candy,

Somewhat off-topic from the 'debate', but I felt I had to comment on this one.
Where do you think composition comes into play ?, same for structure and dynamics in a track ? If it was all about beautiful sounding patches and exquisite reverberations, why bother trying to do anything more than play some pretty chords ? 
Any old-timers here remember 'The Universe' patch on the Korg M1 ? All you had to do was noodle around in a pentatonic minor scale and everything sounded great - but it also sounded the same as anyone else doing the same thing...

Speaking of old-timers (like myself, increasingly), it's worth bearing in mind that they may have considerable years of being musicians under their belts and they may not all be deaf either :)

There's a lot more to it than mere 'ear candy' in my view. In order to create full finished tracks is a step beyond that requires considerably more in terms of application and attention to detail.


« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:13:52 PM by petekelly »

El culto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2014, 01:39:11 PM »
On a side note:

Iīve noticed the most complains about technical issues of other music is coming from members clearly being newbie (with no references at all in music business). Of course, having enough money in today allows anyone to own the "right and respected gear" but unfortunately it needs a bit more than just owning or talking theoretical about it  ;D

Well put Tomas.....Im open to all sorts of opinions, hopefully they are humble especially online where you need to back off a fair bit compared to normal one on one dialogue. 

Gear means absolutely nothing when in the hands of a master.   Shall I bring up the master Samurai story with and inferior Katana sword in his hand and the poorly trainer opponent standing before him.  The sword does not matter. The picture is clear.

Im somewhat embarrassed that I have become involved in this silly bass debate, though it is good to see ambient musicians and ambient music lovers (thats pretty sexy) coming together in a single though diverse thread.

Itīs not really a serious debate of some members here as you can see in the responses above. On the other hand, I really didnīt expect something different by this guys. They mainly enjoy and want to debate about "high-end" and whatever "mystical 7% enhancement in sound"…hey, we are talking here about Ambient music which mostly is based on an embedded and often blurred bed of sounds and tones  ;D I could understand it if we would talk here about music where separation and authentic issues are very critical (like music including electronic + classical instrumentations for instance like Johan Johansson). All those funny responses above reminds me very much of many posts @ Gearslutz  ;D

Most surprising, some are barking so quickly/loud in response as if there is a serious need to defense themselves!

On Topic: Iīve listened to the the track with my Main Speakers + Subwoofer and for me there arenīt any issue with the low end at all. The low end definitely is pushed a tiny bit in volume but nothing out of balance or sounding wrong.

Cheers,
Tomas

El culto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2014, 01:43:04 PM »
I was under the impression, that it was high frequency loss that came with age / over-exposure to loud sound over time.

Not just an impression only but the truth  :)

Horizon 1982

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2014, 01:44:58 PM »
'Ekstasis' said:
Quote
if it is any genre that gear MATTER it is ambient, since all it is about is ear candy,

Somewhat off-topic from the 'debate', but I felt I had to comment on this one.
Where do you think composition comes into play ?, same for structure and dynamics in a track ? If it was all about beautiful sounding patches and exquisite reverberations, why bother trying to do anything more than play some pretty chords ? 
Any old-timers here remember 'The Universe' patch on the Korg M1 ? All you had to do was noodle around in a pentatonic minor scale and everything sounded great - but it also sounded the same as anyone else doing the same thing...

Speaking of old-timers (like myself, increasingly), it's worth bearing in mind that they may have considerable years of being musicians under their belts and they may not all be deaf either :)

There's a lot more to it than mere 'ear candy' in my view. In order to create full finished tracks is a step beyond that requires considerably more in terms of application and attention to detail.

Sure, but how can you do a warm Juno-60 pad without a Juno-60? A Korg Z1 DSP FX sounds without a Z1? Oberheim sounds, that everyone wants to copy from Steve Roach?

These tools have to be present in the first place to composition and all the beautiful things that happen next. So yeah you need these ear candy devices. Unless you are using some obscure methods and I'm not talking about softsynths :) which is fine by me, but I don't mind sounding like everyone else, originality is a joke these days.

Just check Steve Roach studio or Robert Rich's and they don't have an empty studio, correct?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:49:55 PM by Crossing_The_Threshold »

Horizon 1982

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2014, 02:19:08 PM »

well there is different religions there is people who believe in external/physical gear, but there is also another religion and this unlimited belief in this "magic box" ,  and with this "magic box" you can basically create anything you can imagine , it is basically your own imagination that set the limit of what this "magic box" can do.
 


That and cracked plugins, it's so easy to recommend software...........

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2014, 03:54:36 PM »
Gently wading back in here... :-[

Lest I be misinterpreted as attacking any one specific person or not...all I was pointing out with my previous post on low end and where it sits in certain songs hitherto being discussed here, I think that it is perfectly valid to like or dislike anything based on ones own personal taste. I like low end in my ambient music...Great!!! You don't Great!!! I do think the line gets crossed when a person makes presumptive statements about the music along the lines of "so and so must be loosing their hearing" "or "its all due to their switch from gear X to gear Y that said artists music now sucks".

Again, you can say, "I don't like the music now as much as I did before", you can even say that in your opinion you preferred when said artist used synth X, reverb A or mixer C.

However the statements here lately take on a tone which is more along the lines of, "The artist is making a BIG MISTAKE because they switched their gear, or workflow, or they are going in a different direction". Again, you may not like it as much. This is valid. Accusing them of going backwards or not knowing what they are doing or whatever based solely on your personal flavor taste profile is not alright. Its the artists decision to go in what ever musical direction they want, with what ever gear they want, in whatever studio that they want. If you like it or not, thats what you get to decide.

One other thing that seams to be popping up here often which is a very interesting blend of gearslutz meets audiophile discussion. In this arena of gear geakdom there are two schools of thought:

1. Good music can be made with any gear no mater how expensive, cheap, hard or soft.
2. It takes the highest end, cream of the crop gear to make it

In some ways, both are right, but it depends completely on who is wielding the tools. No more and no less. It can also be equal parts studied expertise or naive happy accident.

This brings me to my final point which is tolerance and respect of each other...probably not in the way you think though.

One thing internet culture has dumbed down is opinion vs expertise. (there are many interesting articles on the subject so google it). The crux is that "my opinion is just as valid as another persons years of study, use and expertise in a given subject."

The reality is that there ARE experts in the audio field when it comes to gear and its use. There are experts at mixing and audio engineering. There are people who have spent years learning composition theory. There are people who are expert craftsmen at creating and shaping sounds. Best of all, all of these exist within our own genre.

You would be wise to consider their opinions with an appropriate weight. Not that one never challenges or questions ones elders or sages in any given area, but a wise person always gives them respect and takes what they have to say to heart. A fool does not.

Example if someone has used high end gear gives a new person advice on how to do things better, the new person would do well to listen and consider what is being said. The key here is that the person with the experience should give the new person advice on how to succeed first with what they already have, and only suggest upping their gear if said gear is wrong for them or is causing them to hit a wall. This is the same for compositional advice or whatever. Its the old adage that before you break the rules, you should learn them or at the very least be aware of them and respect them.

Ok...I lied, one final point which rears its head every few years is "what is ambient music anyway?" Well in this day and age, good luck describing it and pigeon holing it. Some of it is deep and droney with little reverb or tonal movement. Some of it has "gasp" a melody played by "gasp" a real instrument...often which may be "gasp" acoustic in nature. Some of it is tribal with ethnic hand played drums. Some of it uses electronic programed beats. Some of it is bathed in more reverb than the deepest reaches of the galaxy. Some of it is lo-fi, some hi-fi. Some has analog sequencers. Some has string sections and choirs.

Its ALL various facets of what we call space music or ambient or whatever.

Peace!
PV

 

« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:56:48 PM by Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le) »
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Horizon 1982

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2014, 04:07:42 PM »
Gently wading back in here... :-[

Lest I be misinterpreted as attacking any one specific person or not...all I was pointing out with my previous post on low end and where it sits in certain songs hitherto being discussed here, I think that it is perfectly valid to like or dislike anything based on ones own personal taste. I like low end in my ambient music...Great!!! You don't Great!!! I do think the line gets crossed when a person makes presumptive statements about the music along the lines of "so and so must be loosing their hearing" "or "its all due to their switch from gear X to gear Y that said artists music now sucks".

Again, you can say, "I don't like the music now as much as I did before", you can even say that in your opinion you preferred when said artist used synth X, reverb A or mixer C.

However the statements here lately take on a tone which is more along the lines of, "The artist is making a BIG MISTAKE because they switched their gear, or workflow, or they are going in a different direction". Again, you may not like it as much. This is valid. Accusing them of going backwards or not knowing what they are doing or whatever based solely on your personal flavor taste profile is not alright. Its the artists decision to go in what ever musical direction they want, with what ever gear they want, in whatever studio that they want. If you like it or not, thats what you get to decide.

One other thing that seams to be popping up here often which is a very interesting blend of gearslutz meets audiophile discussion. In this arena of gear geakdom there are two schools of thought:

1. Good music can be made with any gear no mater how expensive, cheap, hard or soft.
2. It takes the highest end, cream of the crop gear to make it

In some ways, both are right, but it depends completely on who is wielding the tools. No more and no less. It can also be equal parts studied expertise or naive happy accident.

This brings me to my final point which is tolerance and respect of each other...probably not in the way you think though.

One thing internet culture has dumbed down is opinion vs expertise. (there are many interesting articles on the subject so google it). The crux is that "my opinion is just as valid as another persons years of study, use and expertise in a given subject."

The reality is that there ARE experts in the audio field when it comes to gear and its use. There are experts at mixing and audio engineering. There are people who have spent years learning composition theory. There are people who are expert craftsmen at creating and shaping sounds. Best of all, all of these exist within our own genre.

You would be wise to consider their opinions with an appropriate weight. Not that one never challenges or questions ones elders or sages in any given area, but a wise person always gives them respect and takes what they have to say to heart. A fool does not.

Example if someone has used high end gear gives a new person advice on how to do things better, the new person would do well to listen and consider what is being said. The key here is that the person with the experience should give the new person advice on how to succeed first with what they already have, and only suggest upping their gear if said gear is wrong for them or is causing them to hit a wall. This is the same for compositional advice or whatever. Its the old adage that before you break the rules, you should learn them or at the very least be aware of them and respect them.

Ok...I lied, one final point which rears its head every few years is "what is ambient music anyway?" Well in this day and age, good luck describing it and pigeon holing it. Some of it is deep and droney with little reverb or tonal movement. Some of it has "gasp" a melody played by "gasp" a real instrument...often which may be "gasp" acoustic in nature. Some of it is tribal with ethnic hand played drums. Some of it uses electronic programed beats. Some of it is bathed in more reverb than the deepest reaches of the galaxy. Some of it is lo-fi, some hi-fi. Some has analog sequencers. Some has string sections and choirs.

Its ALL various facets of what we call space music or ambient or whatever.

Peace!
PV


I really enjoyed reading your post. Congratulations.

Horizon 1982

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2014, 04:26:27 PM »

The reality is that there ARE experts in the audio field when it comes to gear and its use. There are experts at mixing and audio engineering. There are people who have spent years learning composition theory. There are people who are expert craftsmen at creating and shaping sounds. Best of all, all of these exist within our own genre.

I would like to add that I prefer ambient music by a person with no technical skills and superb creativity. In my area technical experts are the people doing TD jobs which consists assisting REAL artists when they reach technical difficulties. Both are necessary of course.

But don't underestimate the raw power of naivety, children are the most creative humans using divergent thinking and divergent thinking should be used plenty in arts.

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2014, 04:50:39 PM »

I would like to add that I prefer ambient music by a person with no technical skills and superb creativity. In my area technical experts are the people doing TD jobs which consists assisting REAL artists when they reach technical difficulties. Both are necessary of course.

But don't underestimate the raw power of naivety, children are the most creative humans using divergent thinking and divergent thinking should be used plenty in arts.

I am in no way underestimating that. There is great stuff done through naivety. I love the naive happy accident just as much as a tool in the hands of a master. However I have also witnessed naivety turned easily to arrogance in the arts when someone finds out that they did not invent the wheel or that someone is actually better at something then they are.

The inherent problem of naivety is that it really only happens once. In the example of a child, their mind being open and divergent is not the same thing as them being skilled at something and able to communicate it successfully so others understand it.  A baby may be the smartest or most creative person in a room, but if all they can do is babble and drool, their brilliance may take time to be understood until they learn how to talk.

I am not one of those parents who tells my child he is good or worse yet, the best at everything he tries. As a good parent it is my job to let him know when he fails and teach him to do better. If I see that he is good or even gifted at something then it is my job to set him on the right path for his growth, challenge him to keep growing and even push him to reach his full potential in a given area.

In any school, be it a university or a person seeking a mentor or a guru, the job of the professor, mentor, teacher or guru is much the same. To find and unlock the inherent potential in a person and push them to reach it.

I think of a master musician like Ravi Shankar who devoted his life singularly to the pursuit of his art and craft equally. I can truly think of few musicians who ever lived that were better than him. It would be ridiculous and even disrespectful to put a sitar in the hands of a person who has never played one before and believe it to be equal or better than what a master can do. It would be a starting place, it may even be interesting, but it would not be what the master could coax out of it.

What we really want is a person who is a master, but one that can retain the beauty of child like wonder in what they do  ;D
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thirdsystem

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2014, 06:24:55 AM »
I listened to "The Delicate Forever" last night intensely , without distraction and fairly loud.

First off I think this is a great album and I will listen frequently. In respect of the bass issue being discussed I agree with others who have said there is no issue here, it is part of the music. I reckon we must be discussing track 4 and possibly5 in this regard. This is where the bass really makes an appearance  8). A slow but intense drone that adds a dark overtone to the mid and high wandering, meandering synths. This track is haunting, sometimes discordant, unsettling in parts, I think this it really is excellent and creates a very strange atmosphere indeed.

Another thing I like about this album is the way the five tracks blend and subtly change into there own personas almost seamlessly but sometimes hint at the previous or other tracks.

I will enjoy this work of art frequently I suspect.

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2014, 12:58:53 AM »
This is one of those discussions that is hard to comment in, each time I write something I scrap it before posting.

Thanks to Paul for all your positive and reconciliatory posts. Also to Pete supporting the other aspects of music

Steve Roach has been around a long time and created a wide range of music. Some of it I love, some I just don't get. After first getting into his music when I bought everything I could, I now go through phases and am more thoughtful about what I buy and when. It is the same with all the bands/artists/musicians I listen to.

The Fever Dreams series is one I don't get and despite being a drummer who would definitely come under 'Tribal' his more tribal type music since 'The Serpents Lair' also does nothing for me.

But it would never occur to me to say he was wrong in his choice of direction, after all it is his choice, his music, not mine. It would be like saying Rothko uses the wrong colours, Andy Warhol should not have painted a different soup can or Constable should have left the cart out of the picture.....

The distinctions between opinion, experience, wisdom, naivity, preference and fact can all be a little hard to keep hold of (or even find). Einstein ripped through established 'fact', but still got things wrong.

If I don't like parts of an artists repetoire I have choices - accept I don't get it and don't listen or listen and see if I can find the music.

Or given current technical facilities on computers I could eq it and burn a CD I enjoy.

I did have the chance some years back to review albums for a magazine. But after realising that if I don't like an album it is likely to be due to my personal preference or personal ignorance I chose not to comment unless I had something positrive to say. Advertising my own ignorance is not a pleasant sight and I definitely felt better promoting those I did enjoy - already too much unhappiness in the worlld.

However, to contradict myself, as a drummer, who is naive, but had some amazing feedback - I acknowledge I am more able to be judgemental about drummers than electronic musicians - so I suppose I have a personal preference about where I am judgemental and where I am compassionate.......




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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2014, 06:49:13 AM »

If I don't like parts of an artists repertoire I have choices - accept I don't get it and don't listen or listen and see if I can find the music.


I love this quote Seren. I have always tried to live by this, and I usually find and force myself to do the later. Its how I have learned to truly appreciate and enjoy everything from Ravi Shankar to Willie Nelson and everything in between.
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2014, 10:49:32 AM »
I hadn't seen the thread in several days, and it's only now come to my attention that things seem to have derailed here. I've skimmed the whole thread, and I'm going to lock this while I determine which posts to delete and which members get warned or banned.
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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2014, 01:30:42 PM »
This thread has been cleaned up a bit to remove the more grating posts that tended towards personal slander. This also involved removing some innocent ones that were simply responding to the now deleted posts.

Please, please, lets not stoop to this level of discourse. And in future if someone says something inappropriate, try reporting the post to the moderators rather than simply responding in like manner ... that is why we are here, to keep things civil.

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