Author Topic: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'  (Read 2516 times)

chris23

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2014, 10:00:07 AM »
I don't hear any problems with those tracks. But my hearing isn't great anyhow.

Is the low frequency issue in those MC&SS tracks something that can be demonstrated by studying the wave forms? (I'm not a musician, so I have no idea how the technical end of this works. But it seems like the purported problem is something that could be illustrated objectively rather than subjectively.)


Paul Vnuk (Ma Ja Le)

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2014, 12:23:06 PM »
With all due respect, there is no "Low End issue". These tracks sound great to me and I am sure that the low end is intentional. What this comes down to is a matter of taste. I personally like some nice low end in my ambient music from time to time and even song to song, others here don't. I am not sure anyone could make the leap that this low end is due to a lack of skill, equipment or even something like a person's hearing.

I say this because the low end, love it or hate it taste wise is indeed well seated in the mix and not overblown, crackly or boomy.

Just sayin'
"I liken good ambient to good poetry ... enjoyable, often powerful, and usually unpopular" APK

Crepuscule

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2014, 01:24:48 PM »
The tracks here, have in fact that annoying low frequency sound, if you want to connect on skype I can show you. I don't think that sound is musical at all and in fact it sound like a defect. Most comments here seem biased with all due respect.

Just to be clear I like Steve Roach, but I don't understand that decision.


Ekstasis

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2014, 01:44:17 PM »
The tracks here, have in fact that annoying low frequency sound, if you want to connect on skype I can show you. I don't think that sound is musical at all and in fact it sound like a defect. Most comments here seem biased with all due respect.

Just to be clear I like Steve Roach, but I don't understand that decision.

All I can say I have noticed a big shift and change in sound (quality) after his studio change..
Big changes in his signal chain I have think was done then..maybe an ohter mixing board..defiantly using another reverb now and it is not the PCM 91 anymore..which I prefer to whatever reverb he is using now..
the different reverb gives a totally other sound character and I just like.

Would love to hear how his music sound in his studio, if we are hearing the same thing,
Not sure what speakers he is using..  But It is easy to become "home blind" in your own studio..
It probably sound better in his studio for sure...with his gear and speakers and all.. But I have been listening to hi for along time so the shift in sound quality according to me is not progressing anymore...

I just noticed a lot darker character in the latest year and a lot more bass and midrange the high frequencies  is now very low.  Compare albums like atmospheric conditions with Dynamic stillness... The atmopheric conditions album have the PCM 91 for sure.. I think after been using it for so many years he felt forced to experiment and try some other less good reverb...the one he is using sound a lot more dry and darker..I do not like it as much as older albums..

Anyway His new album Delicate forever is a step in right direction one of his best in the later years for sure.

El culto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2014, 03:26:48 PM »
On a side note:

Iīve noticed the most complains about technical issues of other music is coming from members clearly being newbie (with no references at all in music business). Of course, having enough money in today allows anyone to own the "right and respected gear" but unfortunately it needs a bit more than just owning or talking theoretical about it  ;D

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2014, 04:12:29 PM »
On a side note:

Iīve noticed the most complains about technical issues of other music is coming from members clearly being newbie (with no references at all in music business). Of course, having enough money in today allows anyone to own the "right and respected gear" but unfortunately it needs a bit more than just owning or talking theoretical about it  ;D

Well put Tomas.....Im open to all sorts of opinions, hopefully they are humble especially online where you need to back off a fair bit compared to normal one on one dialogue. 

Gear means absolutely nothing when in the hands of a master.   Shall I bring up the master Samurai story with and inferior Katana sword in his hand and the poorly trainer opponent standing before him.  The sword does not matter. The picture is clear.

Im somewhat embarrassed that I have become involved in this silly bass debate, though it is good to see ambient musicians and ambient music lovers (thats pretty sexy) coming together in a single though diverse thread.




Ekstasis

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2014, 04:21:15 PM »
if it is any genre that gear MATTER it is ambient, since all it is about is ear candy,  How can you make a lexicon reverb sound like an Eventide reverb or a lexicon like a sony reverb..  I wish you good luck to find people with the Master skills..  I am not saying you cant make music certain musical colors you need the right gear to represent.. I can hear what gear is being used when I listen to ambient in some cases..since I recognize with the gear I have used...all gear have their own musical language and color
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 04:27:14 PM by Ekstasis »

Castleview

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2014, 05:54:33 PM »
With all due respect, there is no "Low End issue". These tracks sound great to me and I am sure that the low end is intentional. What this comes down to is a matter of taste. I personally like some nice low end in my ambient music from time to time and even song to song, others here don't. I am not sure anyone could make the leap that this low end is due to a lack of skill, equipment or even something like a person's hearing.

I say this because the low end, love it or hate it taste wise is indeed well seated in the mix and not overblown, crackly or boomy.

Just sayin'


Yeah, I don't get what they're saying either. I love a little low end in my ambient music. Sometimes, I love a lot of low end. The whole discussion has been kind of silly, especially with the personal attacks thrown out there.
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Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2014, 06:42:27 PM »
Gentleman...its your tone and honestly you provoked Tomas's to the point response, As well as mine. You know it is so, so dont be so surprised. Your perspective has great value and is well worth discussing but if you come across as you just have then you will be held accountable by forum members who release wonderful ambient music and who do not take to other ambient musicians production skills being questioned especially when the music is so damn "low volume" it seems ridiculous to even question overly extended bass. 

You want to have a go at it...then do so with respect and everyone will listen!  Of course sitting around a table discussing this with a pint of beer and things would be so much better understood.

Love & Peace 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 06:49:09 PM by Julio Di Benedetto »

Castleview

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2014, 07:03:54 PM »
Gentleman...its your tone and honestly you provoked Tomas's to the point response, As well as mine. You know it is so, so dont be so surprised. Your perspective has great value and is well worth discussing but if you come across as you just have then you will be held accountable by forum members who release wonderful ambient music and who do not take to other ambient musicians production skills being questioned especially when the music is so damn "low volume" it seems ridiculous to even question overly extended bass. 

You want to have a go at it...then do so with respect and everyone will listen!  Of course sitting around a table discussing this with a pint of beer and things would be so much better understood.

Love & Peace

I agree with you..I do not want to attack people it takes a lot of energy.. but when there is people like Thomas with intention to just attack people on a personal level I must respond with the same coins... I said what I wanted to say.. I hope we can continue to speak about the new steve roach album now.

Honestly, you're just better off letting it go than responding.
http://castleview.bandcamp.com/
New album available now!

chris23

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2014, 08:05:59 PM »
I think everyone missed the big point here: Julio offered to buy everyone a pint of beer.  ;)

Julio Di Benedetto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2014, 09:54:20 PM »
I think everyone missed the big point here: Julio offered to buy everyone a pint of beer.  ;)

Yep...first rounds on me.  ;D


thirdsystem

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2014, 07:50:46 AM »
Sounds good, a nice chilled pint of amber nectar  :)

Life's too short for falling out about music, especially ambient which I thought was impossible.

I have not detected any negative bass issue with the music under discussion, will have to listen on my main hifi as I tend to listen through in my Office standmounters. The Tannoy floorstanders will be more revealing perhaps.

Good excuse to listen again today  :)

Crepuscule

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2014, 08:06:38 AM »
all gear have their own musical language and color

I couldn't agree more.

I really enjoy the colors and musical language of the gear I purchased, with very few regrets so far...I  didn't liked 3 synths and traded them.

I don't need to justify myself for being a beginner even though I feel I have the right sensitivity (I just need to work more) but hey I just started to build my studio as a part time hobbie about one year and a half ago and I didn't finished yet. I don't want to pursue (at least for now) a musical career, I'm a successful artist in an another field.

But I'm open to a thread like: ''Share your first ambient track, and tells us how you got your first gear''.


My tools are sponsored by my own money making art and not by my parents or a third party... so I'm really proud. I will continue of course to study this, because I love ambient.

I have the right to say I don't like a detail of a track(s) I purchased of a known master, my skills doesn't really matter as a listener and ultimately as a customer.

Cheers








« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 09:17:25 AM by Crossing_The_Threshold »

petekelly

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2014, 01:11:50 PM »
'Ekstasis' said:
Quote
if it is any genre that gear MATTER it is ambient, since all it is about is ear candy,

Somewhat off-topic from the 'debate', but I felt I had to comment on this one.
Where do you think composition comes into play ?, same for structure and dynamics in a track ? If it was all about beautiful sounding patches and exquisite reverberations, why bother trying to do anything more than play some pretty chords ? 
Any old-timers here remember 'The Universe' patch on the Korg M1 ? All you had to do was noodle around in a pentatonic minor scale and everything sounded great - but it also sounded the same as anyone else doing the same thing...

Speaking of old-timers (like myself, increasingly), it's worth bearing in mind that they may have considerable years of being musicians under their belts and they may not all be deaf either :)

There's a lot more to it than mere 'ear candy' in my view. In order to create full finished tracks is a step beyond that requires considerably more in terms of application and attention to detail.


« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:13:52 PM by petekelly »

El culto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2014, 01:39:11 PM »
On a side note:

Iīve noticed the most complains about technical issues of other music is coming from members clearly being newbie (with no references at all in music business). Of course, having enough money in today allows anyone to own the "right and respected gear" but unfortunately it needs a bit more than just owning or talking theoretical about it  ;D

Well put Tomas.....Im open to all sorts of opinions, hopefully they are humble especially online where you need to back off a fair bit compared to normal one on one dialogue. 

Gear means absolutely nothing when in the hands of a master.   Shall I bring up the master Samurai story with and inferior Katana sword in his hand and the poorly trainer opponent standing before him.  The sword does not matter. The picture is clear.

Im somewhat embarrassed that I have become involved in this silly bass debate, though it is good to see ambient musicians and ambient music lovers (thats pretty sexy) coming together in a single though diverse thread.

Itīs not really a serious debate of some members here as you can see in the responses above. On the other hand, I really didnīt expect something different by this guys. They mainly enjoy and want to debate about "high-end" and whatever "mystical 7% enhancement in sound"…hey, we are talking here about Ambient music which mostly is based on an embedded and often blurred bed of sounds and tones  ;D I could understand it if we would talk here about music where separation and authentic issues are very critical (like music including electronic + classical instrumentations for instance like Johan Johansson). All those funny responses above reminds me very much of many posts @ Gearslutz  ;D

Most surprising, some are barking so quickly/loud in response as if there is a serious need to defense themselves!

On Topic: Iīve listened to the the track with my Main Speakers + Subwoofer and for me there arenīt any issue with the low end at all. The low end definitely is pushed a tiny bit in volume but nothing out of balance or sounding wrong.

Cheers,
Tomas

El culto

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2014, 01:43:04 PM »
I was under the impression, that it was high frequency loss that came with age / over-exposure to loud sound over time.

Not just an impression only but the truth  :)

Crepuscule

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2014, 01:44:58 PM »
'Ekstasis' said:
Quote
if it is any genre that gear MATTER it is ambient, since all it is about is ear candy,

Somewhat off-topic from the 'debate', but I felt I had to comment on this one.
Where do you think composition comes into play ?, same for structure and dynamics in a track ? If it was all about beautiful sounding patches and exquisite reverberations, why bother trying to do anything more than play some pretty chords ? 
Any old-timers here remember 'The Universe' patch on the Korg M1 ? All you had to do was noodle around in a pentatonic minor scale and everything sounded great - but it also sounded the same as anyone else doing the same thing...

Speaking of old-timers (like myself, increasingly), it's worth bearing in mind that they may have considerable years of being musicians under their belts and they may not all be deaf either :)

There's a lot more to it than mere 'ear candy' in my view. In order to create full finished tracks is a step beyond that requires considerably more in terms of application and attention to detail.

Sure, but how can you do a warm Juno-60 pad without a Juno-60? A Korg Z1 DSP FX sounds without a Z1? Oberheim sounds, that everyone wants to copy from Steve Roach?

These tools have to be present in the first place to composition and all the beautiful things that happen next. So yeah you need these ear candy devices. Unless you are using some obscure methods and I'm not talking about softsynths :) which is fine by me, but I don't mind sounding like everyone else, originality is a joke these days.

Just check Steve Roach studio or Robert Rich's and they don't have an empty studio, correct?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 01:49:55 PM by Crossing_The_Threshold »

Ekstasis

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2014, 02:12:38 PM »
well there is different religions there is people who believe in external/physical gear, but there is also another religion and this unlimited belief in this "magic box" ,  and with this "magic box" you can basically create anything you can imagine , it is basically your own imagination that set the limit of what this "magic box" can do.  I was a believer of this religion before, since I thought external gear was pretty much obsolete, also the progression was so fast in the Computer world.   I think there is a big majority of people who live in this illusion all you need is really this magic box to realize your imagination.. Well I am hear to tell you, that no the Magic box AKA PC/MAC can't create anything you imagine, there is "things"  and musical languages and colours that this magic box can't really replicate, there for the need for external gear does still exist.  in theory the this "magic box" should be able to create anything, but this is in a future probably beyond our time (considering how slow Intel is progressing these days).

« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 02:14:35 PM by Ekstasis »

Crepuscule

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Re: Steve Roach, 'The Delicate Forever'
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2014, 02:19:08 PM »

well there is different religions there is people who believe in external/physical gear, but there is also another religion and this unlimited belief in this "magic box" ,  and with this "magic box" you can basically create anything you can imagine , it is basically your own imagination that set the limit of what this "magic box" can do.
 



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