CDs are Dead....Almost!

[zzzone.net]

Also what has not been mentioned is the age of all these posters,the newer ones.someone who is 20 or 25 will have a different attitude than someone who is 45 or 50, the next generation as it where.

I may be an exception here.  I'm well over 50 years old and the biggest advocate in this thread for files.

And, thanks Mr. Raymond, for a very well-written perspective.

On a related note, I'm looking forward to the semi-annual vinyl record convention here in Austin in the spring.

http://www.austinrecords.com/

[Julio Di Benedetto]

Honest. We're in a rare situation here as the people who make and sell the music interact closely with the people who
buy and enjoy the music. This way, we get to learn from each other, find out what matters to each
other through this.

Scott Raymond
WVKR-FM

Great opening statement to an very interesting post.

I original posted the Leaf "manifesto" here because as I ponder releasing 3 cds this year It seemed hopeless to does so in pressed format because of the current conditions.  Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....the leaf post sort of took the blinks off my eyes and
and expressed important things beyond economics which was what I was only looking at.   

[doombient]

Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....

You have to educate your listeners. Make the CD the only option they have. A lesson I had to learn from past experience. I will make a new album only available when it has paid off. The sooner you make the download available, the less you will be selling of your CDs.

Stephen

[petekelly]

From my point of view, the experience of listening to the music is the primary thing - whether it's being played
back on a portable device listened to by someone on a train, a plane or up a mountainside. Equally if it's
being experienced at home on a good system / headphones, it's all the same to me.

[zzzone.net]

From my point of view, the experience of listening to the music is the primary thing - whether it's being played
back on a portable device listened to by someone on a train, a plane or up a mountainside. Equally if it's
being experienced at home on a good system / headphones, it's all the same to me.

That sums it up for me too.

As I said above, it's ALL good.

[Scott Raymond]

  Thanks for all the great responses, guys. It's not often that my few remaining brain cells work in unison, but when they do, watch out...

  In response to jdh's comment about the younger generation, that's a good point. I'd touched on it, but didn't go into detail. Quite a few of the college DJ's at the station (WVKR is based out of Vassar College) only know files and have laptops full of music that they play with programs like Traktor and Ableton. That's what they know. My recent ex gf who was *cough* younger was of a similar mind. She loved her father's vinyl collection, but everything else was downloads or streamed music. We have to remember this going forward that there's a whole generation who simply don't use physical media, or only in limited quantities. And yes, the younger generation does listen to ambient music. Look at what labels like Kranky and Western Vinyl are doing to give you an idea. A couple of years ago, I went to NYC to see Stars Of The Lid live. What surprised me the most were how many 20-somethings were in the audience. I felt like an old fogey.

  My main thing, and what I hope gets remembered here, is that I hope artists and fans communicate more with each other. If you want to put out a CD or do something in special packaging, but you're worried about recouping the expense, ask your audience. You might be surprised how many of them will agree to pay the extra money. Some artists in other fields are letting people "pre-order" the upcoming CD. When there's enough orders, the artist makes the CD and ships it out. That way the costs are covered. If you're a fan and want the artist to keep making CD's, or whatever, mention it to them. I made sure to mention to Robert Rich that I thought he should do a solo piano album. And I'm sure he didn't do it just for me. But I imagine enough people told him the same thing that eventually the idea stuck and he did it. And I'm glad he did.

  JDH, I'll have to look for that book you mentioned. Sounds interesting. One I read long ago that influenced me was The Long Tail, by Chris Anderson. All about the future of business and the Internet and how selling less of more can be a good thing. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Scott Raymond
WVKR-FM

[mgriffin]

Lots of great discussion here. Thanks for contributing, everybody.

As many people hav emphasized, including Scott in his latest message, it's important for listeners to let the artists and labels know what they want.  When possible, within the contraints of market realities and budgets, we want to provide what listeners are interested in hearing.

It's somewhat disorienting to find old truths no longer hold, that assumptions about how to present music to the audience must be rethought. Many labels have either given up, or switched to download only, but I believe there must be a model that will allow labels to continue releasing a tangible product (whether it's CD or vinyl or whatever) for those who prefer it. I love the convenience of digital files, but I'm not alone in wanting something more than that.

Those of you who still love CDs or records or both, bear in mind that the labels and the self-released artists who are still putting out materials in these formats need your support more than ever. The break-even point for releasing a CD used to be very easy to reach, with a bit of promotion and word of mouth. Now, even for a more established artists released on a well-known label, it can be difficult to sell enough CDs to justify pressing the discs in the first place.

Conversely, those of us who release music must remember the vital importance of releasing materials of high quality, with an appealing presentation. It's not enough any more to just slap something together and put it out there. We need to be more selective about what we release and put greater care into making it look, feel and sound the best it possibly can.

[Seren]

Oophoi's Time Fragments release by databloem is a case in point......

[doombient]

[...]

Those of you who still love CDs or records or both, bear in mind that the labels and the self-released artists who are still putting out materials in these formats need your support more than ever. The break-even point for releasing a CD used to be very easy to reach, with a bit of promotion and word of mouth. Now, even for a more established artists released on a well-known label, it can be difficult to sell enough CDs to justify pressing the discs in the first place.

Conversely, those of us who release music must remember the vital importance of releasing materials of high quality, with an appealing presentation. It's not enough any more to just slap something together and put it out there. We need to be more selective about what we release and put greater care into making it look, feel and sound the best it possibly can.

You´re taking the words right out of my mouth. Very well-put.

Stephen

[Julio Di Benedetto]

Why press 500 cds and only sell 500 downloads or more or less when the cds sit unloved in boxes....

You have to educate your listeners. Make the CD the only option they have. A lesson I had to learn from past experience. I will make a new album only available when it has paid off. The sooner you make the download available, the less you will be selling of your CDs.

Stephen

Hi Stephen.....Quite so, but we must also listen to our audience

I fear that if I wait for my music to pay for itself than I will be waiting a long time before I release anything else...not questioning your business perspective, just not the model I came into this with.  I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

I dont think about how I can recoup, I think about how the music should be released and then I work on putting that together..... money, production, design, internet presence, etc....

As of now I dont see downloads as something I want to get into for a number of reasons that have been well represented here......but mostly for me its the journey, I spend too much time and joy in creating music to end up as a simple file within a folder to be downloaded. 

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.

[9dragons]

I'm enjoying this discussion and the different perspectives. I used to be completely against downloads, and the few experiences I had with them were uninspiring, and the feeling of detachment from the material made me lose interest quickly. But now, with some experience using an ipod, I am able to understand the counter point to this, and enjoy music detached from material. Though granted I do not and will not buy downloads, I am talking about burning cds into itunes (am listening to Robert Inglis' reading of Lord of the Rings right now).

But am I the only one who thinks itunes is a piece of crap? There are various reasons, but in general it just feels irritating and uncooperative to use. This further deters me from wanting to get downloads.

I've been listening to Roach's 4cd set Mystic Chords this evening, and the enjoyment of the digipaks and fine cover art adds to my experience of the music. I think for packaging these days we have to be very discerning and make something of quality, both graphically and in a tactile/material sense. It's not enough to throw a crappily designed and printed 4 panel piece of paper in a jewel case and call that packaging. I'd really rather see a download only release than that kind of thing. I like how labels like 12k and hypnos have simple and elegant packaging, with design consistency, that project elegance and commitment.

But what about designers and musicians teaming up to produce music accompanied by posters, books, or other specialty items? And then perhaps a download code could be included with the special materials, and those would be limited, and somewhat pricey due to the fine materials and effort put into them. But there could be a cheap option for the non collector to just purchase the download. That might work for everybody, and make the graphic design nerds happy! Curious to know what you guys think of this option...

I am planning a release with a musician that will be just a big, beautiful hand-sewn and printed book that will be built on the same theme and is inspired by the music. We are not sure whether to include a high quality (such as Taiyo Yuden) cdr and the conveyor of the musical information, or just have a special printed post card slotted into the back, that would contain the download code. When I look at the money outlay required for a run of 500 cds, it is somewhat frustrating. Another avenue to take would be for smaller companies to do very low run yet high quality cd pressings, though I don't know the pressing industry, and this may not be feasible.

[doombient]

Like I´ve pointed out many times, downloads are *one* alley to follow. I think they´re useful when it comes to releasing material which would otherwise not be suited for CD release due to playing time or sheer lack of commerciality.

If they become the only way to go, well... freedom of choice would be lost, wouldn´t it?

Stephen

[doombient]

[...]

I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

[...]

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.

Absolutely, but unfortunately it is mistaken as such by many these days. Blame it on a lack of proper education.

1,000 copies of a 2CD set as your debut album... kudos to such a lot of bravery.

Stephen

[Seren]

Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

[zzzone.net]

Here's the interface for Squeezebox server showing the new music folder:

http://zzzone.net/files/new-music.jpg

[It's a large graphics file that you might have to click on to enlarge and scroll left and right]

I can access this folder plus any of the other folders from any computer in the house as well as from the tablets and remote controls.

The server approach provides improved access to your files, allowing you to hear more of your music more often.  It has revolutionized my use of music.

Enjoying the music, regardless of it's format, is what music is all about in my mind.

[hhh]

I too, am both an artist and a musician (composer, really). I just released my debut CD and had no intention to
release downloads only. As an artist, I immensely enjoyed creating the art formy debut CD, A Distant Light, and
will continue to do so with subsequent releases. I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.
While I do provide both CDs and downloads, as an artist, I feel compelled to share the tangible asset. I know
that there are people who appreciate this and even many who prefer it. Yes, it is much more expensive, but it
is, to me, totally worth it. Besides, how am I supposed to autograph an .mp3? ;)

A toast to art, music and their steadfast creators. Long live the CD!

hhh

[Julio Di Benedetto]

[...]

I pressed 1000 cds of my debut release, a double cd digipack.......an unknown musician pressing that much in this market place was crazy, but the reality was/is that to press less would mean the cost would be much more per unit, so I could not pass that along to potential listeners, so pressing more than I thought I could sell to keep cost down even though that meant sitting on inventory that may or may not move in the future, was the only way to go!

[...]

Artistic expression has absolutely nothing to do with convenience.

Absolutely, but unfortunately it is mistaken as such by many these days. Blame it on a lack of proper education.

1,000 copies of a 2CD set as your debut album... kudos to such a lot of bravery.

Stephen

Hey Stephen,

Bravery & Stupidity can be taken as the same sometimes....... seriously though, to press 300 of a double digi would have put cost beyond sense.  a little strange that less should cost more. 

Heard this on radio this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

Seren I enjoyed reading that....I remember a time were a few friends would gather round a stereo system and  enjoy the simple but deep union.

Personally, I have always taken the good songs with the bad and generally the bad have not been so, just have not found their footing so to speak, and as such added a dynamic to the recording.

Again, not to to over stress a point....."The Ritual" Music does not have this in the same way today.

Jimzzzak...like your new Flac logo....what do you call those, anyway....... respect.

I too, am both an artist and a musician (composer, really). I just released my debut CD and had no intention to
release downloads only. As an artist, I immensely enjoyed creating the art formy debut CD, A Distant Light, and
will continue to do so with subsequent releases. I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.
While I do provide both CDs and downloads, as an artist, I feel compelled to share the tangible asset. I know
that there are people who appreciate this and even many who prefer it. Yes, it is much more expensive, but it
is, to me, totally worth it. Besides, how am I supposed to autograph an .mp3? ;)

A toast to art, music and their steadfast creators. Long live the CD!

hhh

Hi hhh,

thanks for joining in the discussion...love your imput!

I received 5 Cd's  yesterday from Infractiion........Wow, beyond the music...I felt like i was back in 12' vinyl days . Artwork, Booklets, Excellent graphic design work.  Im very impressed with the high quality of production....Thank you! 

[abasio]

Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

I was a little surprised reading this that it basically says that a lot of people now just listen to random tracks and not full albums anymore. It is very rare that after putting on an album that I don't listen to all of it. For some reason I thought that was what most people did  :o

[Wanterkeelt]

Heard this on radio this morning

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12209143

I was a little surprised reading this that it basically says that a lot of people now just listen to random tracks and not full albums anymore. It is very rare that after putting on an album that I don't listen to all of it. For some reason I thought that was what most people did  :o

If you listen to a CD or vinyl, then you're right. But since most hifi equipment has USB ports nowadays, you can easily put 20 albums on a stick and listen in random mode. That's what I quite often do: a nice selection of Ambient, Post-Rock, and some Luxembourgish folk, et voilà I can prepare my history lessons  ;D

[zzzone.net]

I highly agree that there is something to be said for being able
to hold a CD in your hands, see the art that reflects the music and read the liner notes about the artist, all without
having to log on to a computer or other digital device.

All I do is search or browse.  The computer is always on and no log-in required because I am the sole user.

It's much quicker to find specific music and get it playing than to wade through my physical library to find a disc, get it out, put it in the player and then to listen.

I think a lot of the dissent I have heard is similar to the dissent I heard when I got my first CDs.  Vinyl was prevalent and folks just didn't have much experience with CDs.

Things have moved on.  There's not a lot of real difference between an optical disc, a cassette tape, a vinyl record, an SD memory card, "the cloud", or a hard disc.

I can project the album art on my HDTV.  How cool is that?

I can be in any room to access my music, not just the room where my music collection is located.

Once again, we get back to access.  Access is the key to increased listening and appreciation of music, regardless of format.