Any ideas what we could do to improve this place?

[mgriffin]

I don't mind a certain amount of self-promotion. I get a little irritated with people who just flood the forum with self-promotion and never post anything else, but most people don't do that.

[jkn]

Wait!  Dude!  Where's this two-fer deal?    :-X

Forums, communities, etc... all ebb and flow - there are phases inactivity and then all of a sudden a big influx of posts.   It's been that way in every forum, message board, whatever that I've been on.   

However, I think it has slowed down a bit in general across the board.   People communicate differently now... where before - a place like this was a primary place to congregate - now it's just one segment.   The people that know me really well... text me - or message me - or google talk me - or facebook chat me - or rM.ning chat me - live and instant.   Heck some people that don't know me talk to me that way.

Unless someone or several someone's jump in and "drive" conversations...  only occasional posts occur.   

I'm one of those weird "drive conversations" guys - always have been.   I don't always succeed ( I love questions or posts that fall so flat no one answers at all.. ha) -

Sometimes it's nice to just say "hello" to people even if there's nothing to talk about.   :-)

[APK]

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a little less self-promotional posting.  Topics and interaction are the main reasons I like to visit, not because I am afraid of missing out on a 'great' two-fer deal or the latest review of a previously posted release.

Forrest

I would be for having more main topics so that, for example, self-promo posts have their own designated section. You go there, you know what to expect. Could have another for independent reviews. Etc.

The virtue of a forum like this is clarity and ease of finding stuff and knowing what you will find in each section. I think having more, and more well-defined, topics would help. For example, the Hypnos section could be a few sections. One would be New and Upcoming on Hypnos.

So I'm certainly for expanding the menu.

[drone on]

I would like to see more reviews here in general.  Lots of CD's coming out that never get a mention here at all, and I miss that, as when I started posting around 10 years ago it seemed there were more topics started about albums and lots of reviews, even if just a few lines of general impressions.  I thought the monthly links to electroambientspace were excellent.   

[phobos]

I too like the Hypnos Forum as it is, it is clear and organised and not "in your face"
But I also like the suggestions to be able to embed Soundcloud and You Tube and I like Tomas' suggestion on a section for collaborations (a Hypnos Forum collaboration CD might be a good idea?)I know EM Portal did something similar.
The forum can tend to be quiet, I have noticed particularly at weekends, but that is because people have other things to do as well as visit here. I would also think as most of us are musicians and have full time jobs, making music not being the full time job, when you do get your free time you tend to use it by spending time with family, wife kids etc, making music and visiting forums to catch up. Being quiet is not a bad thing as I like to catch up on posts that are months, even years old to see what I have missed. You don't have to comment every day. I tend to comment if I feel I have something useful to say or add, like now, for instance. The self promotion thing kind of tends to happen with every forum I am a member of, and probably goes on in lots of other forums too, not just EM, lets face it, this is such a small field, how else are you going to let like minded people know about your latest masterpiece, take out ads on TV or in the lastest fashionable mag, I think that is beyond most if not all of us here. The self promotion I see here, and yes I do it as well, is not excessive and is generally well handled. I am going on a bit now, so to sum up,

Hypnos is great the way it is, it would be nice to embed music and video, a section for collaborations/ideas would be nice and a collaborative Hypnos Forum Members CD would be nice too (which actually doesn't involve a change in the forum as that could get underway now) :)

[Bill Binkelman]

While I think there are things here that could do with some tweaking, overall, the Hypnos forum seems fine. It is relatively uncluttered, but I also don't think RM is "cluttered" as much as it is what it is...a NING community. I joined it, and two "new age music" ones but left the latter two when ALL they were was either self-promotional or discussions that started but never went anywhere. RM, at least, seems interesting...although sometimes the variety of people who post is a bit staggering (to me). I'm used to smaller communities.

I also think that, while there has always been ebb and flow in online forums and communities, I think we are in a paradigm shift (I know, I hate that term too  ::) ) I have NEVER seen the ambient@hyperreal list so dead. Part of this is that some live wires simply have faded away, both here and elsewhere. But, as Mike stated (I think somewhere earlier), people are re-aligning their online communication relationships, whether it be through Facebook or whatever. Again, the ebb and flow is natural, but I also think if you plotted the traffic here or other venues from, say, 2000 to now, you'd see a steady downward trend, irrespective of the ebb/flow.

Another thing is this...and it's just my opinion...ambient is no longer "new." Meaning it's been around now for over 30 years. I remember how exciting it was when, e.g. Strata and Soma came out, i.e. the first two collaborations between ambient wunderkinds Roach and Rich. Part of that was because it was all so new. I'm not saying that either (a) no one is making great music anymore or that (b) there are no "new" talents around. It's just that the element of "new" is relatively gone. And with it, a sense of excitement which led people to discuss more.

Also, (and sorry this is turning into a Binkelman treatise), with the exception of a few newbies now and then, most of us really KNOW each other pretty well, esp. from a music standpoint. Again, once we know our likes and dislikes, it leaves a lot of discussion moot, IMO.

I think it's VERY telling that one of the most discussed topics over the last few years are people dying, e.g. Jim and Barry. It's almost like we suddenly become aware of a world OUTSIDE the minimal discussions here. I know I am in the TINY minority who misses the contentious days of the Everything and Nothing being no-holds-barred and I understand no one wants that any more. But, again this is only my opinion, I can only read so many "currently listening" posts or posts about new releases that, if I had the time, I would buy and listen to (my reviewing backlog is so monumental at this point that buying anything but the occasional soundtrack is pointless).

Maybe nearly everything relevant to ambient music has simply been discussed..."what is ambient?" "how are new age and ambient different?" "does ambient have beats?" "is Eno relevant any more?" etc etc etc.

OTOH, for me personally, I just am not all that interested in some topics and even when I have opinions, I seldom post them. One is because I feel detached from the entire community anyway, and the other is because I don't see the point....by that I mean, a discussion on the merits or downsides of CD-Rs...I mean, so what? Artists will do what they will, no matter who says what. Sometimes, I think some discussions are almost on the level of whining, but that's just me.

Wow, I am in full on rant mode now and LOL'ing to myself. Sorry to all the old timers who know me well from the past. I don't mean nothin' by it. Maybe I just don't like getting old! ;)

Mike, you have done wonders keeping the Forum alive all these years, with John and Anthony's help. Frankly, with everything else you got going, I say leave it as is. My only suggestion is to consider taking the "currently listening" tab and whittle away the really old stuff. Does anyone go back to page 3 or 4 and read it?  ::)

I wish I could get reignited and feel connected to not just here but the ambient community in general...time is just so short but I do hope to once again, at some point, contribute something of worth.

Thanks for indulging me.

[jkn]

I tend to post my "now playings" on google+ now.   I used to mainly post them to twitter (whcih I've almost 99% dropped). 

Why?  Super easy to grab an image of the cover on amazon - and upload it to google and do a quick "now playing" wiht some thoughts about it.   Sometimes details on the album, sometimes links, sometimes just oh man I love this flippin albums it's the bees knees.  :-)

i could post here -b ut I have to admit - I like seeing the cover art.  :-)

I do not like the idea of Facebook auto posting ever single thing I listen to on spotify (well ok I don't have a spotify account - but still...)

But then again - wasn't that what scrobbling on last.fm was all about? 

[ffcal]

I agree that in general the posters here are very considerate and not excessive in promoting their own music.  What I am thinking of are the few who have periodically bumped a subject to the top to simply repromote one of their own releases.  I remember that Low Point did this a while back and it was pretty irritating. 

Reviews in general are also not a problem for me, but I think it can be tricky when posting reviews of your own work.  As a potential consumer, I'd rather hear from the listeners or reviewers directly.

Forrest

[jkn]

" a Binkelman treatise "

Frankly - we need a few more of those.

And yes - losing Jim was probably the biggest blow to the community here... he always had a way of jump starting the conversation even when in full on silly mode.   

My main suggestion to Mike is to figure out how to do images easier and allow embeds of soundcloud and youtube.   Beyond that - I don't think Hypnos needs "fixed". 

[El culto]

I too like the Hypnos Forum as it is, it is clear and organised and not "in your face"
But I also like the suggestions to be able to embed Soundcloud and You Tube and I like Tomas' suggestion on a section for collaborations (a Hypnos Forum collaboration CD might be a good idea?)I know EM Portal did something similar.
The forum can tend to be quiet, I have noticed particularly at weekends, but that is because people have other things to do as well as visit here. I would also think as most of us are musicians and have full time jobs, making music not being the full time job, when you do get your free time you tend to use it by spending time with family, wife kids etc, making music and visiting forums to catch up. Being quiet is not a bad thing as I like to catch up on posts that are months, even years old to see what I have missed. You don't have to comment every day. I tend to comment if I feel I have something useful to say or add, like now, for instance. The self promotion thing kind of tends to happen with every forum I am a member of, and probably goes on in lots of other forums too, not just EM, lets face it, this is such a small field, how else are you going to let like minded people know about your latest masterpiece, take out ads on TV or in the lastest fashionable mag, I think that is beyond most if not all of us here. The self promotion I see here, and yes I do it as well, is not excessive and is generally well handled. I am going on a bit now, so to sum up,

Hypnos is great the way it is, it would be nice to embed music and video, a section for collaborations/ideas would be nice and a collaborative Hypnos Forum Members CD would be nice too (which actually doesn't involve a change in the forum as that could get underway now) :)

Someone still complaining the forum is not active? LOL

Well written Phobos, i agree on anything you said!

To be a bit more precise about this "collab section" i´ve mentioned...appart from the idea of Phobos i see it more "open". For instance, i often like to include some real instruments in the music i do and i´m sure even here are some musicians which are playing an instrument very well (cello, guitar or whatever). If there would be a section this musicians could simply say this in a post...for instance: "i´m a xxxx player and if someone is interested i can provide...etc" - or the other way round, if i´m searching for a particular instrument i can see such people which are open for it and i can simply contact them! IMO this would be a huge tool for this forum, especially since people will only provide because they are into or love this music. Makes a huge difference in comparison to find players anywhere else which are mainly in a particular style.

Cheers,
Tomas

[ffcal]

" a Binkelman treatise "

Frankly - we need a few more of those.

Hear, hear!  :)

[Bill Binkelman]

" a Binkelman treatise "

Frankly - we need a few more of those.

Hear, hear!  :)

Be careful what you wish for.... ;D

[El culto]

Reviews in general are also not a problem for me, but I think it can be tricky when posting reviews of your own work.  As a potential consumer, I'd rather hear from the listeners or reviewers directly.

I was reading this several times and still don´t understand it.

The usual progress is: reviews are made from 3rd persons like website, blogs magazines etc....so, it makes a difference for you if a customer or the reviewer post the same review instead of the artist?  ???

[ffcal]

Maybe I could have worded it little more artfully, but I think there is more of a danger of the artist's own selectivity (or, to be more blunt, posting only positive reviews) if the reviews are filtered through the artist first.  Who would want to post a negative review of their own work?

Forrest

Reviews in general are also not a problem for me, but I think it can be tricky when posting reviews of your own work.  As a potential consumer, I'd rather hear from the listeners or reviewers directly.

I was reading this several times and still don´t understand it.

The usual progress is: reviews are made from 3rd persons like website, blogs magazines etc....so, it makes a difference for you if a customer or the reviewer post the same review instead of the artist?  ???

[El culto]

Maybe I could have worded it little more artfully, but I think there is more of a danger of the artist's own selectivity (or, to be more blunt, posting only positive reviews) if the reviews are filtered through the artist first.  Who would want to post a negative review of their own work?

Forrest

Reviews in general are also not a problem for me, but I think it can be tricky when posting reviews of your own work.  As a potential consumer, I'd rather hear from the listeners or reviewers directly.

I was reading this several times and still don´t understand it.

The usual progress is: reviews are made from 3rd persons like website, blogs magazines etc....so, it makes a difference for you if a customer or the reviewer post the same review instead of the artist?  ???

True, agree on this point!

On the other hand, critical reviewers are very care in today...actually i got a very "nice" response back after asking for sending demos. I will be "fair" and not mention the name here, even a lot of people know this person and the radio station behind but the answer was...yes, sent me your stuff, but i charge 10$ for each review...isn´t it a great answer? Just imagine what happened if i´ve sent 30$?  ;D ;D

Useless to say it´s not worth to support this nonsense.

[Bill Binkelman]

On a totally random tangential note here, and I do mean random and tangential, John's earlier statement: "The people that know me really well... text me - or message me - or google talk me - or facebook chat me - or rM.ning chat me - live and instant. "
prompts me to ask the following:

How many of us IN THIS COMMUNITY (and I also include members who only occasionally or even never post here but are mentioned here frequently, e.g. Robert Rich) ever talk by phone any more? Back in the days of W and W the magazine and even the early days of the website (2000-2002), I FREQUENTLY spoke to folks on the phone. During the magazine, I think Mike and I talked at least once a month. I know I spoke to Howard Givens at Spotted Peccary, Jeff Pearce, Barry Craig (RIP), Lloyd Barde, and many more on a regular basis. But how many here still do that? Do members, who have known each other for years, ever call each other any more or is it all via electronic media? I think the ONLY person I speak to on the phone any more is the promoter Ed Bonk, Jamie Bonk's dad, who runs Lazz Promotions.

Frankly, I miss it. It's ironic (or is it? maybe... after Alanis M, I can never be sure) that I FINALLY got Comcast digital voice with unlimited long distance and now I never have to call anyone!  ::)

Back in the magazine days, my long distance bill was HUGE every month.

Just curious....is it all text, email, FB, etc? Do we reserve our personal contact for the rare face-to-face? My last contact face to face with ANYONE in this community was with SunDummy when we had a beer together then attended the Robert Rich concert at the Cedar Cultural Center in Mpls at least 6 or more years ago...hell, it might've been 8 years.

Gee, I'm rambling again...see? You get what you wished for....as Gene Wilder said to Terry Garr in Young Frankenstein...."HAPPY?"

[mgriffin]

Jeff Pearce called me about a half hour ago, Bill, and we talked about you!

:)

[mgriffin]

I should add... I almost never talk on the phone. With my schedule, there are very few, brief openings for communications like this. It's usually more convenient to communicate here or by email or on Facebook PM, so I don't have to be available at the same time the person I'm talking to is available.

[Bill Binkelman]

Maybe I could have worded it little more artfully, but I think there is more of a danger of the artist's own selectivity (or, to be more blunt, posting only positive reviews) if the reviews are filtered through the artist first.  Who would want to post a negative review of their own work?

Forrest

Reviews in general are also not a problem for me, but I think it can be tricky when posting reviews of your own work.  As a potential consumer, I'd rather hear from the listeners or reviewers directly.

I was reading this several times and still don´t understand it.

The usual progress is: reviews are made from 3rd persons like website, blogs magazines etc....so, it makes a difference for you if a customer or the reviewer post the same review instead of the artist?  ???

True, agree on this point!

On the other hand, critical reviewers are very care in today...actually i got a very "nice" response back after asking for sending demos. I will be "fair" and not mention the name here, even a lot of people know this person and the radio station behind but the answer was...yes, sent me your stuff, but i charge 10$ for each review...isn´t it a great answer? Just imagine what happened if i´ve sent 30$?  ;D ;D

Useless to say it´s not worth to support this nonsense.

I hate to say it but I have heard of this practice and it saddens me. I have been paid to write liner notes and press releases and bios, and in fact I actively solicit the opportunity to to do so (in case anyone needs something done) as I think I have a knack for it, as well as layout skills for one sheets. But I have never taken a dime from an artist or a label for a review and never will.

I wouldn't criticize a reviewer if he/she asked for a fee IF they are not being paid to review, and most are not...but it does cast a suspicious light on the nature of the review - obviously.

I also understand that when artists post reviews, it can be the case of hand-picking the best...but on the other hand, some reviewers simply don't circulate their reviews either. Some artists ask me to post my review on CDBaby or Amazon and others do it themselves or don't post it period. I don't mind being asked to do so and am surprised more people don't ask. Sometimes, I think my posting reviews seems, somehow, that I'm blowing MY horn, not the artist's! (okay...poor choice of words on my part  :o ).  So I don't post many any more. I have reviewed some ambient CDs for New Age Retailer, e.g. The Road Eternal, but I guess I'm afraid that since the review is in New Age Retailer, people here wouldn't be interested in what I wrote....guess I've gotten insecure in my old age.

Bill

[Bill Binkelman]

Jeff Pearce called me about a half hour ago, Bill, and we talked about you!

:)

I figured it would be Pearce....I've been waiting for that sonuvabitch to invite me to Indiana for a beer for over a dozen years. But no! Well, I'm done being his lackey. He can just get someone else to provide hero worship, admiration, genuflection and worship...

Just kidding, Jeff.....need your car washed?  ;D